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Alan Kay's reading list

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Re: Alan Kay's reading list

#71

Post by igravious »

paulojreis wrote: post #56
alankay wrote: post #42

This wasn't actually for my students, and dates back to the early 90s. A number of people at Anderson Consulting (now Accenture) asked for my "top ten" books. This is not possible for anyone who reads extensively, so I came out with that list as a bare start. I should mention that reading lots of "poor books" is also part of literacy: they help the understanding and appreciation of "good books" considerably.

I always wanted to ask you this: what's your opinion on Gregory Bateson's work on the intersection of anthropology, psychiatry, cybernetics and communication in general? Since this discussion is focusing on books, have you read "Steps to an Ecology of Mind"? I hope it goes without saying: thank you very much for your contribution to the world, generally.

Would you also consider then:

_The Laws of Form_ by George Spencer Brown,

Anything about logic by Gotthard Günther :) (He's a rare bird.)

_Autopoiesis and Cognition: the Realization of the Living_ by Maturana and Varela

Anything by Niklass Luhmann about social systems: the economy, mass media, art, functional differentiation, … He was a student of Talcott Parsons

Norbert Wiener, _Cybernetics: Or Control And Communication in the Animal and the Machine_ and _The Human Use of Human Beings: Cybernetics and Society_

_An Introduction to Cybernetics_ by W. Ross Ashby

McCullogh and Pitts (You mention Minsky but not these dudes.) _A Logical Calculus of the Ideas Immanent in Nervous Activity_

Basically, most of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberneticist

? :)

Re: Alan Kay's reading list

#72

Post by justsaysmthng »

alankay wrote: post #66
justsaysmthng wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alan, have you actually read all those books cover-to-cover ? In general how do you read ? Do you finish a book even if you don't like the style or subject matter ? Do you read sequentially - one book at a time cover to cover - or do you read several books in parallel ? Any tips/tricks on how to choose the next book ? Do you continue going deeper into the subject matter of the last book or do you jump to a completely…

Somewhat by accident I wound up a fluent reader before going to school, and read voraciously from then on. I'm not sure how many books I've read, but probably no more than 20,000 (I have some friends -- and have knowledge of some -- who have read quite a bit more). Fluency really helps because there are fewer really worthwhile books than other kinds (this is similar to "most ideas are mediocre down to bad", in no sma…

Thank you.

From what I've read, the idea for The Whole Earth Catalog came to Stewart Brand during an acid trip, so I'm going to try my luck with a deeper question on the subject...

The counterculture and the "psychedelic revolution" of the '60s has been a subject I've been very interested in, especially its impact on technology and computing.

You were there, you saw it with your own eyes, you helped move technology forward with your mind, you worked with all kinds of experimenters and bearded geniuses..

Do you think that psychedelic drugs had a big impact on how technology (and society) has evolved since the '60 ?

The reason I'm asking this, is because these substances and practices are making a major come back, now globally, and I'm very curious about how this will impact our society in the future, given the radical changes apparently spawned in the short period that people explored them, before becoming illegal..

Re: Alan Kay's reading list

#73

Post by paulojreis »

alankay1 wrote: post #68
paulojreis wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's worth it to try to understand what "interesting people" have thought -- it provides context for one's own thinking. This is eventually the main reason why I mentioned Bateson's work in particular (besides the depth and orthogonality of his ideas). I've read Watzlawick's work on interaction and pragmatics of communication before I've read Bateson's. I found Watzlawick's ideas easier to grasp (at least, I'm unde…

Well, Gregory missed some important ideas in that book (partly from his background I think, and partly from his personality). You might get some perspective from looking at his last book "Mind and Nature". And, in many ways, much more powerful looks at "mind" are Minsky's "Society of Mind" and "The Emotion Machine". There is also Kahneman's "Thinking: Fast and Slow" more recently ...

Would you have a place in your list for António Damásio's work on consciousness and, generally, the embodied mind?

Re: Alan Kay's reading list

#74

Post by a_imho »

alankay wrote: post #66
justsaysmthng wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alan, have you actually read all those books cover-to-cover ? In general how do you read ? Do you finish a book even if you don't like the style or subject matter ? Do you read sequentially - one book at a time cover to cover - or do you read several books in parallel ? Any tips/tricks on how to choose the next book ? Do you continue going deeper into the subject matter of the last book or do you jump to a completely…

Somewhat by accident I wound up a fluent reader before going to school, and read voraciously from then on. I'm not sure how many books I've read, but probably no more than 20,000 (I have some friends -- and have knowledge of some -- who have read quite a bit more). Fluency really helps because there are fewer really worthwhile books than other kinds (this is similar to "most ideas are mediocre down to bad", in no sma…

>probably no more than 20,000 (I have some friends -- and have knowledge of some -- who have read quite a bit more).

can you please verify that number? Assuming reading for that past 50 years, that is over a book/day (or 3 books / 4 days reading for 75 years). I'm a slow reader and generally enjoy taking my time reading, but that would be quite the volume.

Re: Alan Kay's reading list

#75

Post by internaut »

alankay wrote: post #42

This wasn't actually for my students, and dates back to the early 90s. A number of people at Anderson Consulting (now Accenture) asked for my "top ten" books. This is not possible for anyone who reads extensively, so I came out with that list as a bare start. I should mention that reading lots of "poor books" is also part of literacy: they help the understanding and appreciation of "good books" considerably.

Thanks Alan, that looks like a pretty fantastic list of books to get engaged with.

Definitely agree with this sentiment:

> I should mention that reading lots of "poor books" is also part of literacy: they help the understanding and appreciation of "good books" considerably.

I see parents bemoaning their children reading sort of simple formulaic series like The Hardy Boys but frankly that's how I started out and now those parents complaining consider me some kind of authority due to my collection of books and wide ranging reading habits.

It's ok to read spy/dective fiction or romance novels. As long as you make an attempt to explore outside those genres at some point it'll be fine.

It's like the three stage rocket leaving earth's gravity. The payload is supported by an immense amount of push from something that will be thrown away later (until Elon Musk came along). You don't necessarily get better readers by increasing the quantity of payload.

Re: Alan Kay's reading list

#76

Post by CapitalistCartr »

a_imho wrote: post #74
alankay wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somewhat by accident I wound up a fluent reader before going to school, and read voraciously from then on. I'm not sure how many books I've read, but probably no more than 20,000 (I have some friends -- and have knowledge of some -- who have read quite a bit more). Fluency really helps because there are fewer really worthwhile books than other kinds (this is similar to "most ideas are mediocre down to bad", in no sma…

>probably no more than 20,000 (I have some friends -- and have knowledge of some -- who have read quite a bit more). can you please verify that number? Assuming reading for that past 50 years, that is over a book/day (or 3 books / 4 days reading for 75 years). I'm a slow reader and generally enjoy taking my time reading, but that would be quite the volume.

When I was a kid, I worked my way through our local library in an orderly fashion. I only had to be able to sign my name to get a card. When mom would drop us off for a few hours, we'd pick out our six books (the limit), she'd come get us, and before we got home, she'd chide us on already reading too many of them. We wouldn't make them last until the next visit.

It seemed an agonizing wait until 14, the required age for checking out books from the adult section. I'd read the entire children's section, so I had to wait until after school (pointless school) to read adult books at the library. By 18, I'd read about 20,000 books. Strangely, on turning 18, my reading rate dropped off a cliff.

Re: Alan Kay's reading list

#77

Post by dudifordMann »

a_imho wrote: post #74
alankay wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somewhat by accident I wound up a fluent reader before going to school, and read voraciously from then on. I'm not sure how many books I've read, but probably no more than 20,000 (I have some friends -- and have knowledge of some -- who have read quite a bit more). Fluency really helps because there are fewer really worthwhile books than other kinds (this is similar to "most ideas are mediocre down to bad", in no sma…

>probably no more than 20,000 (I have some friends -- and have knowledge of some -- who have read quite a bit more). can you please verify that number? Assuming reading for that past 50 years, that is over a book/day (or 3 books / 4 days reading for 75 years). I'm a slow reader and generally enjoy taking my time reading, but that would be quite the volume.

0 is no more than 20,000

100 is no more than 20,000

i don't think verification is needed...

[edited for carriage return]

Re: Alan Kay's reading list

#78

Post by christudor »

CapitalistCartr wrote: post #76
a_imho wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>probably no more than 20,000 (I have some friends -- and have knowledge of some -- who have read quite a bit more). can you please verify that number? Assuming reading for that past 50 years, that is over a book/day (or 3 books / 4 days reading for 75 years). I'm a slow reader and generally enjoy taking my time reading, but that would be quite the volume.

When I was a kid, I worked my way through our local library in an orderly fashion. I only had to be able to sign my name to get a card. When mom would drop us off for a few hours, we'd pick out our six books (the limit), she'd come get us, and before we got home, she'd chide us on already reading too many of them. We wouldn't make them last until the next visit. It seemed an agonizing wait until 14, the required age…

How much do you read nowadays? What kind of stuff? (And have you got any recommendations in terms of fiction!?)

Re: Alan Kay's reading list

#79

Post by christudor »

a_imho wrote: post #74
alankay wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somewhat by accident I wound up a fluent reader before going to school, and read voraciously from then on. I'm not sure how many books I've read, but probably no more than 20,000 (I have some friends -- and have knowledge of some -- who have read quite a bit more). Fluency really helps because there are fewer really worthwhile books than other kinds (this is similar to "most ideas are mediocre down to bad", in no sma…

>probably no more than 20,000 (I have some friends -- and have knowledge of some -- who have read quite a bit more). can you please verify that number? Assuming reading for that past 50 years, that is over a book/day (or 3 books / 4 days reading for 75 years). I'm a slow reader and generally enjoy taking my time reading, but that would be quite the volume.

Note: I have friends who claim to have read an similarly extraordinary number of books, although in their case it turns out they had actually been 'speed reading' them, which I wouldn't count as reading at all.[1] Some people would disagree with me, however...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_reading

Re: Alan Kay's reading list

#80

Post by alankay »

justsaysmthng wrote: post #72
alankay wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somewhat by accident I wound up a fluent reader before going to school, and read voraciously from then on. I'm not sure how many books I've read, but probably no more than 20,000 (I have some friends -- and have knowledge of some -- who have read quite a bit more). Fluency really helps because there are fewer really worthwhile books than other kinds (this is similar to "most ideas are mediocre down to bad", in no sma…

Thank you. From what I've read, the idea for The Whole Earth Catalog came to Stewart Brand during an acid trip, so I'm going to try my luck with a deeper question on the subject... The counterculture and the "psychedelic revolution" of the '60s has been a subject I've been very interested in, especially its impact on technology and computing. You were there, you saw it with your own eyes, you helped move technology f…

"The 60s" was more than a backdrop, especially in California -- and it was about a variety of things all at once, including: equal rights and race, the Vietnam War, and thoughts less in the same groove. The "counter culture" was all around Palo Alto and the rest of the Bay Area, and provided another set of contexts.

And I think it had indirect influence -- kind of a glow -- on other things that were going on, such as changes in technology and computing. But I would call most of the top people there at that time -- including most of the researchers at PARC -- quite straight with regard to drugs. PARC was much more of an older drinking culture than a drugs culture. However, other kinds of non-drug mind-altering practices were experimented with (many kinds of meditation, self-hypnosis, isolation tanks, etc.)

A little goes a long way, for many reasons.

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