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Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

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Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

#341
post #228
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Clintons are famously close to Hollywood and have been quite bad for anti-copyright causes. One word: DMCA.

The law would come out of Congress. I have no compelling reason to believe at this time that any candidate for this Presidential election wouldn't just sign it and move on with life. (I can read tea leaves and hypothesize as well as anyone else, but I have no real facts that leads me to believe otherwise.) If that is the case, there's very little advantage to the industry getting close to the President; all they can…

Yes. Copyright is essentially a settled political issue; both sides, as a matter of platform, seem to believe it should last as long as possible and reserve as many benefits as possible to its creators. Of course, this is not what the public believes, but since copyright legislation is usually labeled something emotionally manipulative and dishonest like "The Mickey Mouse Protection Act" and since the media has an interest in presenting that legislation in the most favorable light possible, no one ends up opposing the specific bills.

As such, all current candidates, with the possible exception of Sanders, would probably consider signing a copyright bill routine (Lessig isn't a candidate anymore).

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

#342

Despite the win, I think it would have been far better for the computer industry if Google had bought Sun. Unlike other companies with crap (IMHO ... Nokia, Motorola), Sun actually had stuff of value. This is a lesson that geeks get but I'm not sure MBAs do or will ever get.

Sources at the time told me IBM were planning on buying Sun (for the hardware/Telco business) and avoiding anti-trust problems by spinning software off to Red Hat (Java, ZFS, Solaris, etc). They got cold feet over the spectre of bribery investigations against Sun. I weep for the parallel universe in which Red Hat had been in a position to open all of Sun's technologies properly.

My understanding is that Schwartz et al declined IBM's bid and chose to proceed with Oracle's, under the assumption that Oracle's superior business record would mean more stability for Sun employees.

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

#343
post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess the risk of fewer Taylor Swifts. Fewer Kany Wests. Fewer Oracles. Fewer Microsofts. Fewer Steve Jobs. Those are such small consequences that, to be honest, they might be additional benefits. Most of the public would consider those pretty enormous consequences. Heck, I'd be upset if I had to switch away from a MacBook Pro to a commodity-PC-hardware + Linux solution for personal use today, even without any of…

You would still buy a Macbook if patents and copyright did not exist, wouldn't you? In fact there are much more powerful designs in the PC world. But you stick to the Apple brand because you've been burnt with everything else, from cheap knock-offs to famous makers who distribute an OEM versions of Windows with viruses and rogue root CA certificates. What saves Apple is being the only make you can rely on. They're no…

Without copyright, anyone could make a knockoff Apple and it would dilute their brand so much as to make it unworkable for Apple to make a quality product and get paid for it. Apple absolutely requires copyright protection of their software to keep their brand exclusive to drive profit to keep making nice products. The PC world that you noted is the epitome of the race to the bottom they would have to participate in otherwise.

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

#345
post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that your libertarian rationalisation against copyright? Because with that kind of logic we couldn't have contracts either (breaching a contract can be non-violent). > And where does copying end, and thought begin? In the same way we decide when a person becomes legally major. We draw whichever arbitrary line seems to make the most sense.

with that kind of logic we couldn't have contracts either That a false equivalence, contracts are between two parties who both have no grant of violence.

[deleted]

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

#347

This is 100% inaccurate That story leaves out significant details, and his description of the reason is wrong. He leaves out significant prior sources and reasons, to the point your statement "It was not created to help artists or whoever" is simply wrong. Wikipedia provides a far better history with extensive sources [1]. Note for example the section "Early Developments" where they list precursors to anything in you…

Using Wikipedia as an authoritative source is actively discourage by Wikipedia project itself and by basically every university and research body in existence.

The Early Developments section you talk about is about the concept of copyright as it exist today, rather than the history of copyright law as it was made. The French law, while tangential, followed a different path and focus heavily on the concept of moral right, concept which does not explicitly exist in the US copyright law. US law focused instead on statutory monopolies, and loosely match that of the French commercial right that authors was granted. Authors moral rights, as the existed in French copyright law, was instead weakly incorporated into libel laws.

You claim that the US copyright law was started by authors guild, but three states had already enacted copyright statutes prior to the Continental Congress resolution. Where is your evidence that author protection was the intention behind the law makers of the time, which goes in rather stark contrast to every other aspect and the final text which focuses on the commercial aspects and not the rights of the authors. If the US copyright law was derrived from the French law, why is there no concept of "authors moral right" as there is in many EU countries to this day?

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

#348

Law evolves and the law of copyright in particular is ripe for "disruption" - and I say this not as one who opposes the idea of copyright but, on the contrary, as one who strongly supports it. It is right that the author of a creative work get protection for having conceived that work and reduced it to tangible form. Developers do this all the time with their code. So too do many, many others. Many today disagree wit…

> Yet, as much as people believe that information ought to be free, it is a fact that simply letting any casual passer-by copy and distribute any creative work with impunity would certainly work to rob those who may have spent countless hours developing such works of the commercial value of their efforts.

It's the other way. You cleverly switched the "ought" with the "fact".

What is a fact, is that "intellectual property" is not a real, tangible thing, like physical property. We only reason about IP in this way because we say it is. IP is made of words, the concept is willed into existence by copyright laws, and is only real as long all parties agree (or are forced to) to treat it as such, but the way it works is exactly however we collectively decide it ought to work.

That's unlike the concept of physical property, which is simply forced into existence, due to the fundamental properties of matter+energy, being that that what is not destroyed or created, nor goes away when you stop believing in it. Properties that actually apply just fine to information too, it exists in the physical world after all. It just represents such a minuscule amount of energy that it appears almost completely free, even when compared to just the energy required to entertain it as a human thought ...

Information isn't really free, people just get all twisted up about the fact that it's fundamentally worth very little, compared to almost anything else. But the information was never the valuable part. If you offer to clean my dirty kitchen, that's worth some value ultimately based on energy required to perform the service. Note you can only sell me this service once. If you just tell me about a clean kitchen, that's also worth some value ultimately based on energy required to perform the service--roughly the same order of magnitude as the value of the utterance "cool story bro".

We're really still very much haggling over the price of information. And the offers on both sides of the table are not even remotely in the same ballpark. Both sides are playing hard, using all the tricks in the book and out of the box.

And that's possible, all right, I guess. You can force or decide to artificially prop up the price of something way beyond its value. They do that with diamonds and probably many other things. There's some tricks that can make that work for a rather long time, even. But ultimately you're not extracting value from the thing, but a power differential that indirectly imbues the thing with value.

This indirection is a way to create an "ought", but not a fact.

Which is fine in principle, there are many "oughts" I support completely, making up what I believe is good and right. But I accept that I cannot argue those as "facts", but only in other ways, preferably based on an ethical framework (but if you must, any power differential will do).

Now, I believe, and I don't know if this is a fact, that the situation is untenable. Maybe I'm overlooking something, but I doubt even copyright law can artificially prop up the value of information indefinitely. It merely postpones the inevitable crash to its true value. For instance, I am an artist, I can make a beautiful illustration or piece of music, and give it away for free. Not all artists might want to, but enough will to kick the bottom out of the market, if slowly over time.

The only way to prevent me from doing that, is to forbid me giving away my work for free, or forbid/complicate the public domain. What is what would happen if I offer my work to the world, but I lack the control to keep it free, only for some party that will play the game, to swoop in, assume ownership and sell it as IP even though it is against my wishes. Which I hope you agree would be at least as bad a situation as today's content producers crying about piracy=robbery. Yet it is exactly what today's audio/video streaming services are lining up to enforce. Someone has to own your works as intellectual property, or they will own it for you.

And ultimately the content producers get screwed out of their rights, which I hope by now you also see coming from miles away, because the value never came from the content, it came from the power differential enforcing the concept of intellectual property.

As a content producer, I'd MUCH rather get screwed over by piracy (which is available to everybody equally) than giving the large "content industry" corporations the exclusive screwing me, giving them the power to enforce intellectual property rights however they see fit. But don't think for a moment that I, small time content producer, will be in control of my content for anything more than its fundamental worth.

And either way, as an artist, I'll keep producing beautiful things because I enjoy doing so. Regardless.

And either way, if you want to make a living off content production, the only way is to sell the service (commission), not the content. Regardless.

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

#349
post #320

If Oracle decides to drop Java development, I wonder who will bother to pick it up. Surely not Google, if they hadn't bothered the first time around.

Considering IBM/SAP are vowing to bring Swift to masses on servers and clients. Apple/MS dropped Java quite a while back. I do not see any big vendor with serious money to pick Java development. Redhat is there but I doubt they will when they might be looking to push Ceylon.

Of course it is hypothetical as I absolutely do not think Oracle will consider doing such thing.

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

#350
post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Financial incentives don't encourage great art, they only incentivize commercial art. There are overlaps, but we can't pretend those are both the same thing. I don't entirely agree. Appreciation of art is subjective by nature, but the way we usually quantify value in our society is financial. A work that is popular will be more financially successful. A work that does not have such broad appeal but which is worth a g…

Appreciation of art is subjective by nature, but the way we usually quantify value in our society is financial. A work that is popular will be more financially successful. A work that does not have such broad appeal but which is worth a great deal to a smaller group can also be successful. So unless you want to make some argument that art that is neither widely appreciated nor strongly appreciated by a few can still…

When I was talking about strong appreciation by smaller groups, I wasn't thinking of the kind of works that only a privileged rich elite can afford. Certainly there are people who go to art auctions and buy paintings for millions, so I suppose that would be an extreme case of the same principle.

However, when I wrote my previous post I was more thinking about products in niche markets. An academic text by an expert in a narrow field would presumably appeal to fewer people than a Harry Potter novel, but to those who are working in the field, it might be very valuable to see the insights of an authority on the subject. Thus it becomes viable to publish texts that cost far more than a novel for each copy, if there are enough people still willing to buy it at that price. There are parallels in other niche markets, say a relatively obscure music style where fans are still willing to pay for recordings by a band they enjoy, or specialist software that is only useful to a relatively small number of businesses but is so useful to those businesses that it can sell for thousands of dollars per user.

Are those specialist texts greater works than Harry Potter because they sell for more? Are those specialist software products greater works than the latest Grand Theft Auto? I don't think that's necessarily the case. To me, a popular work that brings happiness to many people can be great, even if the highbrow brigade would look down on it and say it wasn't very good. When they've brought as many smiles to as many children as JK Rowling, their opinion on that subject will mean something to me. :-)

I want to close by coming back to the idea that value is often subjective. I am certainly not implying that to any given person a work can only be great if it makes a lot of money, just as in your own example of two people being in love, only two people's opinions on the greatness of the relationship really matter. I am just saying that in the large, as an economic matter, judging a product by how much others consider it worth is one of the few relatively objective measures we have available.

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