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Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

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Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YouTube Content ID and equivalent takedowns of content on other services (including false claims, videos shut down because of incidental music, or actual use of content in a transformative way). Remixers/mash-ups. Romhacks/mods/etc. "Abridged series" (of the humorous variety, not literal abridging). Fan works of all kinds. The entire emulation scene. Tools for reading and rescuing content from proprietary file format…

It seems to me that many of your examples are more symptoms of today's often absurd implementations, rather than the basic idea of copyright itself. As I argued in another post, I don't think copyright should ever become an artificial tool to limit communication or interoperability, and as such work necessary to that purpose should indeed not be subject to copyright. It already isn't, to varying degrees, in various j…

It seems to me that you've moved the goalposts. I certainly agree that a less broken system of copyright would work better than the one we have. But the question at hand was whether there existed cases in which copyright has harmed works that might thrive more in the absence of copyright, as a part of evaluating whether it makes sense to consider the state of "alternative models" given the current legal system directly supporting the primary copyright model and in many cases harming those alternatives. You've then reasserted that you want the "basic idea" of copyright as a means of dismissing these examples, but that wasn't the question at hand.

In a model without copyright, it wouldn't matter whether a work was derivative, or whether it depended on the "original creative assets"; what would matter is whether people found it useful, interesting, and worth supporting/promoting.

(As for the comment on decentralization of services, I'd agree, but at the same time that particular set of problems also wouldn't exist in the absence of copyright.)

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

#282
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copyright doesn't care about the software's behavior, just the text and structure of the code. Samba implemented CIFS without looking at or copying any Microsoft code.

Reverse engineering is not a defense against infringement if the subject of reverse engineering is copyright-protected.

It generally is. That's the whole point of clean-room reimplementation. You have one set of engineers that reverse engineers a product to develop a spec, and another set that implements the same functionality from the spec. That's kosher and has been upheld in several court cases.

The trouble for doing that with Java APIs is the spec basically is the class declarations. You don't just need to "do the same thing" you need a tangible source file that has at least in part the same text.

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proving that there's no better solution is impractical. However, the size of the copyright-backed creative industries today, by any reasonable metric I can think of, is vastly greater than the size of the creative industries built around the alternative models that have been tried noticeably often so far. That seems to include all of volunteer-based, crowd-funded, mass donation-funded, traditional patronage where som…

> Likewise, the quality of work produced with the economic incentive of copyright tends to be better, often much better, than what is produced based on other funding models or a voluntary basis... (Some people may disagree, but I consider this point so obvious by now that it's rarely worth engaging on.) Sorry you find this tiresome. The history of popular and culturally relevant music can be seen as basically a histo…

Financial incentives don't encourage great art, they only incentivize commercial art. There are overlaps, but we can't pretend those are both the same thing.

I don't entirely agree. Appreciation of art is subjective by nature, but the way we usually quantify value in our society is financial. A work that is popular will be more financially successful. A work that does not have such broad appeal but which is worth a great deal to a smaller group can also be successful. So unless you want to make some argument that art that is neither widely appreciated nor strongly appreciated by a few can still be great, I don't think the concepts you mentioned are as independent as you're suggesting.

I would also point out that copyright incentivizes the creation and distribution of utilitarian creative works, not just artistic ones. In some respects this is the more valuable side of copyright, because as you point out, with artistic work there will probably always be some level of creativity whether or not it's compensated. With more practical works, say business accounting software or a high school science textbook, there's much less incentive to create the works without some form of money or other compensation involved.

But even in the case of artistic work, I think it's fair to say that a successful professionally edited and published novel is likely to be better writing on average than most popular fan fiction. There are some impressive amateur video productions on YouTube these days, but no-one is making a hobby show with the production values of Game of Thrones. A few potentially decent games have achieved quite impressive funding through Kickstarter, but some of them still haven't actually been shipped years later, and typically they're multiple orders of magnitude below what the budget for a modern AAA title.

You can draw similar comparisons in most fields covered by copyright, whether artistic or simply utilitarian. Certainly not all commercially produced works backed by copyright are successful. Copyright doesn't guarantee anyone a financial return on their hard work. However, it does provide a direct incentive to produce better works and distribute them more widely, because the more successful a work is, the greater the return it will generate.

The only two fields I can immediately think of where serious money is made from creative works but probably would still be made if those works weren't subject to copyright are live performances and software created to support something else rather than for sale in its own right. Even then, not everyone protected by copyrights would necessarily benefit; for example, a band or orchestra might bring in a lot of money for a live concert, but probably someone else wrote the music or songs. So again, the financial incentive to write the best music comes from wanting as many performances of that music as possible to be enjoyed, and thus to maximise the royalties.

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that many of your examples are more symptoms of today's often absurd implementations, rather than the basic idea of copyright itself. As I argued in another post, I don't think copyright should ever become an artificial tool to limit communication or interoperability, and as such work necessary to that purpose should indeed not be subject to copyright. It already isn't, to varying degrees, in various j…

It seems to me that you've moved the goalposts. I certainly agree that a less broken system of copyright would work better than the one we have. But the question at hand was whether there existed cases in which copyright has harmed works that might thrive more in the absence of copyright, as a part of evaluating whether it makes sense to consider the state of "alternative models" given the current legal system direct…

I suppose I did move the goalposts, however unintentional it may have been. Yes, what I'm really defending here is the basic premise of copyright. I have no interest in defending copyright that effectively lasts forever, or that has such wide scope that we see billion-dollar lawsuits over work that shouldn't have been covered by copyright in the first place, or other similarly obvious abuses from the relatively recent past.

However, if the underlying question we're asking here is still whether copyright adversely affects other potential economic models for creating and distributing new works, I think my original point remains valid. How would the scenarios you mentioned support alternative model(s) that would be more attractive to creators than what we have (or at least, should have) under some sort of copyright scheme?

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

#286
post #52

So, APIs are still thought as copyright'able and that was a different trial, right? Now Google was ruled okay to use that single, small function, or what was this about? A little more info would be nice for those who aren't following this closely.

In 2012, court rules Java APIs are not copyrightable. In 2014, that decision was appealed and overruled, declaring Java APIs copyrightable. The case was sent back to determine if Google's reimplementing APIs was "fair use" of copyrighted material.

Now we saw that trial, where jury ruled on fair use. It was fair use.

(nothing to do with any small function, that was in 2012)

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

#287
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is right that the author of a creative work get protection for having conceived that work and reduced it to tangible form. This is incorrect (and I didn't grow up in the digital age, unless you call 4 function calculators the "digital age"). There is no such right. It is not a human right, nor is it something that you are intrinsically entitled to have. Copyright is something that is endowed upon you by the gove…

Your parent poster said 'it is right', not 'it is /a/ right'. You're attacking a statement that didn't exist in the parent post.

I'm not so sure about that; I believe "it is right" implies the existence of a moral right. That may not have been the direct intent of the parent comment, but it definitely follows from that claim.

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proving that there's no better solution is impractical. However, the size of the copyright-backed creative industries today, by any reasonable metric I can think of, is vastly greater than the size of the creative industries built around the alternative models that have been tried noticeably often so far. That seems to include all of volunteer-based, crowd-funded, mass donation-funded, traditional patronage where som…

> Proving that there's no better solution is impractical. Logically impossible actually.

I avoided phrasing it that way in case we got bogged down with how we're defining terms and what assumptions are reasonable to make. Of course you can't prove the general negative case, but even if you started trying to work with a more concrete economic model, anything realistic enough to be useful would most likely also be too complicated to analyze completely.

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

#289
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is right that the author of a creative work get protection for having conceived that work and reduced it to tangible form. This is incorrect (and I didn't grow up in the digital age, unless you call 4 function calculators the "digital age"). There is no such right. It is not a human right, nor is it something that you are intrinsically entitled to have. Copyright is something that is endowed upon you by the gove…

Your parent poster said 'it is right', not 'it is /a/ right'. You're attacking a statement that didn't exist in the parent post.

It seems that he was arguing against the sentiment rather than the statement

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

#290

Law evolves and the law of copyright in particular is ripe for "disruption" - and I say this not as one who opposes the idea of copyright but, on the contrary, as one who strongly supports it. It is right that the author of a creative work get protection for having conceived that work and reduced it to tangible form. Developers do this all the time with their code. So too do many, many others. Many today disagree wit…

> It is right that the author of a creative work get protection for having conceived that work and reduced it to tangible form. This is incorrect (and I didn't grow up in the digital age, unless you call 4 function calculators the "digital age"). There is no such right. It is not a human right, nor is it something that you are intrinsically entitled to have. Copyright is something that is endowed upon you by the gove…

> It is an overloaded term.

That is the most computer-programmery way of saying "homophone" or "different sense of the word."

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