Earlier quoted context omitted.
It was a major source of licensing revenue for Sun, and one of the main reasons why historically they had been reluctant to open source Java. They were making around $200M revenue from it in 2007, which was the major source of income for their software business.
I thought this part of an Ars Technica article[0] on the trial was pretty telling: "On cross-exam, a Google attorney brought up a graph from an internal presentation by Brenner showing "aggressive" and "conservative" estimates of what would happen to Java licensing revenue from 2007 to 2010. The graph's "aggressive" line showed a decline from around $140 million per year to about $105 million, and the "conservative"…
Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour
271–280 of 409 posts
Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour
#272Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's not a sufficient answer. The claim assumes that copyright and patents are proven to be beneficial, measurably better than the prior situation. Are they? If so, how? Not to mention, is there any proof there's no better solution?
I think you're moving the goalposts quite a bit here! The original assertion does not assume that the current implementation and interpretation of copyright law is, as you say, "proven to be beneficial, measurably better than the prior situation." The complaint was that "that's not how facts work" but the statement in question was in fact verifiable. If you want to provide proof of a better solution, go for it. Proof…
you're moving the goalposts. post you responded to was not questioning the right of creators to be compensated for their work.
Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour
#273Law evolves and the law of copyright in particular is ripe for "disruption" - and I say this not as one who opposes the idea of copyright but, on the contrary, as one who strongly supports it. It is right that the author of a creative work get protection for having conceived that work and reduced it to tangible form. Developers do this all the time with their code. So too do many, many others. Many today disagree wit…
This is incorrect (and I didn't grow up in the digital age, unless you call 4 function calculators the "digital age"). There is no such right. It is not a human right, nor is it something that you are intrinsically entitled to have.
Copyright is something that is endowed upon you by the government. It is intrinsically owned by society. You are granted a limited monopoly on copying. If society did not grant you this monopoly, you would not have it. This is how it has worked historically and this is how it is written in law currently.
The problem that you may be facing is the "right" in "copyright". It is an overloaded term. It refers to your legal ability rather than your moral entitlement.
Because copyright is not an intrinsic right, but rather a societal grant, it is important that we weigh the societal benefits of this grant. In my opinion, in this case the ability to receive a copyright for an API is counter to the intent of copyright. For example, why can we not copyright recipes or game rules or fashion designs? I won't rehash 100 years of legal debate on the subject, but rather give my opinion that similar criteria should be applied here.
Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour
#274Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's not a sufficient answer. The claim assumes that copyright and patents are proven to be beneficial, measurably better than the prior situation. Are they? If so, how? Not to mention, is there any proof there's no better solution?
Proving that there's no better solution is impractical. However, the size of the copyright-backed creative industries today, by any reasonable metric I can think of, is vastly greater than the size of the creative industries built around the alternative models that have been tried noticeably often so far. That seems to include all of volunteer-based, crowd-funded, mass donation-funded, traditional patronage where som…
Logically impossible actually.
Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour
#275Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The GPL does not depend on copyrightable APIs True in terms of the GPL as such , but the FSFs interpretation that the GPL applies to works that link, even dynamically, to a GPL covered work, which it holds to be derivative works, depends absolutely on the API presented by a library being a copyright-protected element (it also probably can't stand even then without an extremely narrow interpretation of "fair use".)
Why? A license is just a contract, no? Can't the clauses be arbitrary? I mean, could you have a clause in a license that said "to distribute this work, you need to wear purple shoes on Mondays"? If so, why wouldn't you just be able to say "to distribute this work, you need to distribute works that link to it under the same license", as as arbitrary condition?
The question at hand is whether you can impose these restrictions in the viral fashion of the GPL, e.g., on code I write that merely makes use of your APIs.
The way that the GPL attempts to enforce this is with copyright law, by not granting you the right to redistribute GPLed software unless you comply with it. By design, it doesn't restrict anything else about how you use the software.
Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour
#276Earlier quoted context omitted.
The law would come out of Congress. I have no compelling reason to believe at this time that any candidate for this Presidential election wouldn't just sign it and move on with life. (I can read tea leaves and hypothesize as well as anyone else, but I have no real facts that leads me to believe otherwise.) If that is the case, there's very little advantage to the industry getting close to the President; all they can…
> all they can do is sign it The US legislative process lives and dies on building alliances and horse-trading. A word from the President and/or his/her promise of future help in other matters is hugely valuable . A law going through Congress and a law going through Congress with support from the President are two very different things in practice, and would be disingenuous to say that's not the case.
It used to, back in the day. That hasn't been the case for a while in today's extremely partisan environment where compromise is now a dirty word and presidential support for something makes it less likely to pass given the hostile congress that will remain even after Clinton wins.
Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour
#277Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's not a sufficient answer. The claim assumes that copyright and patents are proven to be beneficial, measurably better than the prior situation. Are they? If so, how? Not to mention, is there any proof there's no better solution?
Proving that there's no better solution is impractical. However, the size of the copyright-backed creative industries today, by any reasonable metric I can think of, is vastly greater than the size of the creative industries built around the alternative models that have been tried noticeably often so far. That seems to include all of volunteer-based, crowd-funded, mass donation-funded, traditional patronage where som…
Sorry you find this tiresome. The history of popular and culturally relevant music can be seen as basically a history of uncompensated outsider art becoming coopted and repackaged into dull derivatives.
You may find, for example, Elvis clearly superior to the mostly uncompensated African American traditions he pulled from, but that's hardly a position so universal as to be obvious.
I know you caveated with especially things people don't do for fun, but basically all art attracts people doing it for art's sake.
> That seems like decent evidence that no-one has found a reliably better way to incentivize creating and distributing new works so far
The overwhelming majority of artists will never see any return for their works. There is such a long tail of garage bands making music for fun that it's hard to imagine the need for financial incentives to encourage greater saturation of that industry.
Financial incentives don't encourage great art, they only incentivize commercial art. There are overlaps, but we can't pretend those are both the same thing.
Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour
#278Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour
#279Earlier quoted context omitted.
Numerous readily available examples suggest that it has, however. Would you share some of those examples? I've heard this argument made before, and I agree that undermining alternative models is both logically possible and a plausible concern in practice. However, the only examples anyone has come up with so far have been some form of derivative work with questionable added value. Lacking any more compelling evidence…
YouTube Content ID and equivalent takedowns of content on other services (including false claims, videos shut down because of incidental music, or actual use of content in a transformative way). Remixers/mash-ups. Romhacks/mods/etc. "Abridged series" (of the humorous variety, not literal abridging). Fan works of all kinds. The entire emulation scene. Tools for reading and rescuing content from proprietary file format…
As I argued in another post, I don't think copyright should ever become an artificial tool to limit communication or interoperability, and as such work necessary to that purpose should indeed not be subject to copyright. It already isn't, to varying degrees, in various jurisdictions.
False takedown claims and the problems that result are more a symptom of allowing centralised hosting of content than anything else. YouTube and the like have no obligation to continue hosting anyone's content if it causes them trouble, regardless of the legitimacy or otherwise of any complaints. As long as there are also no real penalties in law for malicious or negligent actions by big rightsholders, you're going to get this sort of problem anyway.
There are already supposed to be provisions, under banners like fair use or fair dealing, for various applications of works that don't prejudice the original intent of the copyright. Here again it's clear that regulatory capture is hard at work undermining the system, but likewise here again that's due to weak political leadership rather than an inherent problem with copyright.
The areas you mentioned where I'm not so sure are things like remixes, fan works, and mods. In many cases these derivative works do depend on the original creative assets for most of their value, and as such perhaps they should not be exempt from the normal copyright provisions.
In short, I don't see any of those as particularly compelling examples against the basic idea of copyright as a temporary monopoly on reproduction of creative works, subject to reasonable limitations of scope. Rather, I think they are compelling examples of how badly copyright laws have been captured and distorted over time by powerful special interests, particularly in the US, and to some extent of the dangers of giving up control of our own content to third party hosting or distribution services with their own priorities that don't necessarily match our own.
Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour
#280Law evolves and the law of copyright in particular is ripe for "disruption" - and I say this not as one who opposes the idea of copyright but, on the contrary, as one who strongly supports it. It is right that the author of a creative work get protection for having conceived that work and reduced it to tangible form. Developers do this all the time with their code. So too do many, many others. Many today disagree wit…
> It is right that the author of a creative work get protection for having conceived that work and reduced it to tangible form. This is incorrect (and I didn't grow up in the digital age, unless you call 4 function calculators the "digital age"). There is no such right. It is not a human right, nor is it something that you are intrinsically entitled to have. Copyright is something that is endowed upon you by the gove…
You're attacking a statement that didn't exist in the parent post.