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Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

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Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is right that the author of a creative work get protection for having conceived that work and reduced it to tangible form. This is incorrect (and I didn't grow up in the digital age, unless you call 4 function calculators the "digital age"). There is no such right. It is not a human right, nor is it something that you are intrinsically entitled to have. Copyright is something that is endowed upon you by the gove…

> There is no such right. It is not a human right, nor is it something that you are intrinsically entitled to have. I disagree with that. To the extent that any rights are "natural" or "human" (as opposed to all rights being creations of the government), I think copyright is entitled to that status more so than say rights in land. My back yard is something that was here before I was born and will be here after I die.…

Copyright is a monopoly. I think that's what is confusing. The human right to own something (not necessarily land) is not a market monopoly, except in the trivial sense that there is only one of them and if you choose not to give/sell it away, nobody else can have it.

When you make a creative work, you own that work. This is a human right. It is yours. If you never show it to anyone, then they can't copy it. So in a way, you have the same monopoly in a trivial sense.

Let's say you have an apple and you eat it. I happen to have an apple to and watching you eat it I think, "That looks delicious. I'm going to eat my apple too". It's my apple. I'm allowed to eat it. I'm allowed to copy your action. It's a basic freedom that I enjoy.

Now imagine that you had a monopoly on eating apples. Well, that's pretty horrible for the world. Even if you were the very first person to think of eating an apple, it would be terrible for us to give you a monopoly on eating apples. There are lots of apples. I'm not depriving you of your human right to own apples (or eat them if you choose). Just because you happened to think of it first is no reason to deprive others.

The important thing is: you have no human right to stop others from eating apples. Even if nobody had thought of it before, your human rights only go as far as yourself and the things in your possession. Similarly, even if I was hungry, I have no human right to force you to show me how to eat an apple. It's your apple. It's your body. You can do what you like.

Let's say you have a piece of canvas and some paint. You paint a picture of an apple on your canvas. I think, "Hey, that's pretty cool". I happen to have a canvas and some paint. They are my canvas and paint and I can do what I want with them.... except paint a picture of an apple that looks like your picture. Because you have a monopoly on painting pictures that look like that.

This is almost as terrible as giving a monopoly on eating apples. However, as a society we have decided that we want to encourage innovative apple painting. So even though it is kind of strange, we grant a limited monopoly to anyone who paints an apple that looks different than apples that anybody else has painted previously.

So instead of a human right, what we've done is get together as a society to say, "Apple painting is an important part of our culture and we like to see new apple paintings. It is boring to see the same picture over and over again." We all agree (collectively, through our society) to abstain from copying other people's apple paintings for a certain period of time.

Now, do we have the right as a society to force you to divulge any new apple paintings you might draw? If there is a sudden famine and the only food we have are apples, do we have the right to force you to show us how to eat apples? I am not an expert in these fields, but I suspect that these examples would infringe on human rights, even if it would help society as a whole.

I hope that makes the issue more clear.

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

#322
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought this part of an Ars Technica article[0] on the trial was pretty telling: "On cross-exam, a Google attorney brought up a graph from an internal presentation by Brenner showing "aggressive" and "conservative" estimates of what would happen to Java licensing revenue from 2007 to 2010. The graph's "aggressive" line showed a decline from around $140 million per year to about $105 million, and the "conservative"…

That's not relevant to fair use analysis. What's relevant to fair use analysis is if Java's market would have been bigger if Google neither bought a license nor produced Android. Obviously, any unlicensed use of a copyright protected work is going to reduce the caller of the protected work compared to the exact same behavior coupled with paying for a license, but that's not what the market effect factor is about.

You miss the case where Google had produced Android with a different platform (LLVM, Objective-C, or their own language). Since Java was in decline on mobile, it should have just entirely ripped Java from the mobile market.

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

#323
post #305

Law evolves and the law of copyright in particular is ripe for "disruption" - and I say this not as one who opposes the idea of copyright but, on the contrary, as one who strongly supports it. It is right that the author of a creative work get protection for having conceived that work and reduced it to tangible form. Developers do this all the time with their code. So too do many, many others. Many today disagree wit…

When a casual passer-by records, copies, and disseminates, no physical aggression is committed. The enforcement of copyright law depends on a third-party initiating a threat of force against property, freedom, and life to dissuade such actions. Copying is non-violent, whereas preventing it requires violence. And where does copying end, and thought begin? If I examine source code, or lyrics, or a short story, reflect…

Is that your libertarian rationalisation against copyright? Because with that kind of logic we couldn't have contracts either (breaching a contract can be non-violent).

> And where does copying end, and thought begin?

In the same way we decide when a person becomes legally major. We draw whichever arbitrary line seems to make the most sense.

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

#324

Law evolves and the law of copyright in particular is ripe for "disruption" - and I say this not as one who opposes the idea of copyright but, on the contrary, as one who strongly supports it. It is right that the author of a creative work get protection for having conceived that work and reduced it to tangible form. Developers do this all the time with their code. So too do many, many others. Many today disagree wit…

Cooyright protects companies' interest, and companies by default will try to milk as much money as they can from anything, so while your argumentation is very well worded (and I do believe you sincerely mean it in a good way) copyright does very little to protect the author himself but only the corporation that enables him to publish his work in the first place.

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People complain about the special interests, but some fail to realize that the major backers of Extreme Copyright (TM) are a special interest that we created. We, the US public, out of the goodness of our hearts and wanting to foster art, gave up our right to "repeat what we heard" (copying, when what you hear is digital) in return for incentives to create art. And then bam ; decades later the incentives are the de f…

> I guess the risk of fewer Taylor Swifts. Fewer Kany Wests. Fewer Oracles. Fewer Microsofts. Fewer Steve Jobs. Those are such small consequences that, to be honest, they might be additional benefits. Most of the public would consider those pretty enormous consequences. Heck, I'd be upset if I had to switch away from a MacBook Pro to a commodity-PC-hardware + Linux solution for personal use today, even without any of…

You would still buy a Macbook if patents and copyright did not exist, wouldn't you? In fact there are much more powerful designs in the PC world. But you stick to the Apple brand because you've been burnt with everything else, from cheap knock-offs to famous makers who distribute an OEM versions of Windows with viruses and rogue root CA certificates. What saves Apple is being the only make you can rely on. They're not particularly innovative in the products they make. What is the role of patents in that?

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

#327

Law evolves and the law of copyright in particular is ripe for "disruption" - and I say this not as one who opposes the idea of copyright but, on the contrary, as one who strongly supports it. It is right that the author of a creative work get protection for having conceived that work and reduced it to tangible form. Developers do this all the time with their code. So too do many, many others. Many today disagree wit…

> Many today disagree with this because they grew up in a digital age where copyright was seen as simply an unnecessary impediment to the otherwise limitless and basically cost-free capacity we all have to reproduce digital products in our modern world and hence an impediment to the social good that would come from widespread sharing of such products for free. As a creator, I agree with the idea of copyright, but as…

That's alright for mere consumption, but what about derivatives? I mean, take a look at fan-fiction - it's practically a violation of copyright by definition, and yet it provides a template for budding authors so they don't have to invent their own characters and world from scratch to start writing interesting interactions - there are an awful lot of major authors that wouldn't have started writing if it weren't for fanfiction, by their own admission. For example, 50 Shades Of Grey was originally a Twilight fanfic, but it's pretty darn popular as its own unrelated thing now.

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

#328

See, as ever, Florian Mueller for a... different perspective: http://www.fosspatents.com/2016/05/oracle-v-google-jury-find...

Funny how he mentions a rigged trial, which is exactly what the Supreme Court ruling was. However, they declined to hear again which could effectively mean "You got your copyrighted APIs, now fuck off". Mueller is so discredited he doesn't have any weight at all.

In which way was the Supreme Court rulling rigged?

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Market sizes isn't the same as societal benefit. Just like how a modern society built around horses and carts with all the overhead and work that would require wouldn't be an improvement. It seems to me that it is very very rare that it is the copyright enforcement and/or necessity (will) to stay within legal limits that itself is the reason any given copyrighted offer stays profitable. People pays because they want…

Market sizes isn't the same as societal benefit. I'm arguing that copyright-supported creative effort overall produces and distributes significantly more and significantly better works than creative effort supported in other ways. If that doesn't imply societal benefit to you, what does?

What's the argument based on? Compared to for example software projects under permissive licenses, Creative Commons, etc, can you show that copyright does more than to simply help somebody popularize (through marketing) things that likely already would have existed?

Re: Jury in Oracle v. Google finds in Google's favour

#330
post #121
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> tweets > reporting done right I'm not sure. Surely it would only benefit her if she weren't limited by 140 characters, right?

That's one way of looking at it. But using a medium where people expect short, frequent updates rather than a 10,000 word article has its advantages.

There's a wide spectrum between a 10k word article and not being limited.
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