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Peter Thiel, Tech Billionaire, Reveals Secret War with Gawker

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Re: Peter Thiel, Tech Billionaire, Reveals Secret War with Gawker

#291
post #290
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a few ways this argument can play out: 1. You have a moral obligation to litigate moral wrongs, whether or not they happened to you. Since rich people have more money and hence more things are litigable to them, they have a moral obligation to litigate more things. In this view, Thiel obviously did the wrong thing: he avoided litigating moral wrongs for years while waiting for the right case to come up stri…

Another way to look at it is this: It happened. For the most part, everyone is better off because it did. If that weren't the case, we would have done something to stop it. "Moral obligations" are made-up. Obligated by whom? What happens if someone doesn't fulfill their moral obligation? Nothing, right? Maybe someone writes a comment on the Internet saying they should be ashamed, but that's pretty much it. Feel free…

If the only way you can argue for Peter Thiel's actions is to deny moral realism, then, uh, I think we've said all that we need to say on the topic.

Re: Peter Thiel, Tech Billionaire, Reveals Secret War with Gawker

#292
post #291
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another way to look at it is this: It happened. For the most part, everyone is better off because it did. If that weren't the case, we would have done something to stop it. "Moral obligations" are made-up. Obligated by whom? What happens if someone doesn't fulfill their moral obligation? Nothing, right? Maybe someone writes a comment on the Internet saying they should be ashamed, but that's pretty much it. Feel free…

If the only way you can argue for Peter Thiel's actions is to deny moral realism, then, uh, I think we've said all that we need to say on the topic.

If the only way you can argue against them is to refer to some rules you made up, I agree.

In any event "retribution" is an overly simplistic way of looking at what Thiel did. It could also be interpreted as protecting future victims of Gawker.

Suppose someone stabs me, and I live. For whatever reason, they get away and continue to run around stabbing people. If at some point in the future, they attempt to stab someone else and I stop them, killing them in the process, is that killing in retribution or protection? Maybe both. It doesn't really matter so long as we can stop people from getting stabbed.

Re: Peter Thiel, Tech Billionaire, Reveals Secret War with Gawker

#293
Seems likes the impression of a self-righteous, wealthy industrialist who is trying to shutdown speech he dislikes. I mean, if you're pulling a gilded-age industrialist stunt at least go out and build your own media outlet.

Keep speech plural.

No, I don't feel like I need to justify whether I read Gawker or not; or whether I agree with Gawker as a publication or not. If you don't like one article go and take it down if you got legal standing. Why go nuclear?

PS. I know little about P. Thiel and his political and social stances. The impression I got of him are from headlines like: "Billionaire investor Peter Thiel's plan to pay college students to drop out..." and "Libertarian Island: A billionaire's utopia". And now "Billionaire Peter Thiel funded Hulk Hogan lawsuit to take down Gawker"... Is there a decent biography out there worth reading?

Re: Peter Thiel, Tech Billionaire, Reveals Secret War with Gawker

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder whether Hogan/Bollea was advised by "his" counsel about the ramifications of dropping one of the pieces of litigation - a piece that would have increased the ability for Bollea to collect that damage award. As it happens the particular tort that was dropped was the only one that would allow Gawker to use their insurance to cover the liability of the verdict awarded. Thiel's goal is to destroy Gawker. A Gawke…

>...there are perfectly valid ethical questions about Thiel's involvement and motivations in this whole debacle. Your post basically reads like a law school ethics question/answer. You did a great job issue spotting. Law being one of the most highly regulated industries there are rules on point, so I can answer some of your questions. Here is how the Florida Rule of Professional Conduct reads "Rule 4-5.4(d): Exercise…

Right, I'm not saying "this is cut and dried -wrong-" but that it does raise what I feel are valid questions about the influences, both conscious and subconscious that surround this whole situation.

Like you say, Thiel could not direct the firm to change strategy, but on the other hand (and I realize that this may come across as an accusation where one isn't intended), no doubt Thiel is talking to the law firm, and directing multiple people to this particular firm, and given that he has been vocal about his goals, it's also possible that such things creep in to decision making processes.

Bollea and Thiel's interests may also be perfectly aligned.

Re: Peter Thiel, Tech Billionaire, Reveals Secret War with Gawker

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder whether Hogan/Bollea was advised by "his" counsel about the ramifications of dropping one of the pieces of litigation - a piece that would have increased the ability for Bollea to collect that damage award. As it happens the particular tort that was dropped was the only one that would allow Gawker to use their insurance to cover the liability of the verdict awarded. Thiel's goal is to destroy Gawker. A Gawke…

These are reasonable questions but there is no evidence that Terry Bollea was an unwilling participant. Obviously Thiel wasn't in it for the money but (higher potential) compensation was not necessarily the main motivation for Bollea either. He's already a wealthy man by most standards and probably more concerned about his (Terry) honor and causing his character (Hulk) to lose face because if that hurts the macho pub…

No, and that's a fair point, these are only the questions that come to my mind when reading this, certainly not "something that happened".

By all intents, though, Bollea is (at least to his own words) "near bankruptcy", due to divorce. So it seems odd that he'd also - after being awarded a large sum - which is all he'd sought before - _then_ decide to drop the claim which offered him his only real chance at seeing any noticeable part of that award.

Certainly there is more to life than money, though, as you point out, moral codes and honor.

I also am curious as to whether he would have gotten the award he did if the jury felt that it would bankrupt Gawker, rather than cause an insurance liability payout - that seems a little bit unusual.

This is an admittedly contrived example, so bear with me - there are some analogies, and some discrepancies, and this is the best I can do:

I am driving negligently. Setting aside any criminal charges that may cause me to face, I come careening through and have an "accident". Subsequent to that, your property is destroyed, perhaps as part of a chain reaction, me coming through the fence. Perhaps as a result, you're injured. You lose your livelihood, you lose your house.

You sue me, for damages related around this whole messy incident. Medical costs. Lost livelihood. The loss on your house when foreclosed, damages etc.

The jury says hey, you're absolutely right, he was negligent and we're going to award (say) $2M in damages.

Here I am, I'm a careless and reckless driver. But I do have good insurance. It has a whole bunch of third party, property, and liability coverage. So it sucks for everyone, but you have the ability to be "made whole" (as far as is reasonably possible). I on the other hand am out of business. The vehicle I drove was my truck I used for my own business. My fault, consequences of my actions, etc, etc. I'm probably done for.

Then you decide, at the last minute of the court case, to drop any claim of damages explicitly about the accident. "Nope, we don't want to pursue the damages claim directly related to the accident itself. We are still going to pursue all claims related to any of the fallout, the loss of house, livelihood, but the accident itself, we're waiving that".

This has the curious effect of 1) meaning my insurance company says "Well, sorry, pal, we no longer have an interest. You're not being sued over damages due to your accident, you're on your own", and 2) which you realized, also realistically means you have near zero chance of collecting any of the moneys awarded, because this is putting me out of business.

I would certainly be asking questions of you there, were I the judge: are you aware of the consequences of this decision? what motivated the change, certainly at this point in proceedings, and I'd be asking the jury how that would affect the award, because in most cases there is going to be -some- (not the only) element of the likelihood of payment of the award.

Re: Peter Thiel, Tech Billionaire, Reveals Secret War with Gawker

#296
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder whether Hogan/Bollea was advised by "his" counsel about the ramifications of dropping one of the pieces of litigation - a piece that would have increased the ability for Bollea to collect that damage award. As it happens the particular tort that was dropped was the only one that would allow Gawker to use their insurance to cover the liability of the verdict awarded. Thiel's goal is to destroy Gawker. A Gawke…

You still haven't made a case that Thiel's actions are unethical.

At no point have I said that Thiel acted unethically, either. I think it's natural, and valid, to ask questions, or discuss why someone might act in a way that on the surface appears deleterious to their own interests, particularly when there is someone behind the curtains who does have a different, or tangential interest.

Re: Peter Thiel, Tech Billionaire, Reveals Secret War with Gawker

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post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other people get to 'decide' at appeal time: I were the judge / on a jury on a case were the complainant was tactically dropping charges with the aim of bankrupting the other party rather than seeking justice, I'd probably decide against them. I find using the justice system in pursuit of revenge at the cost of actual justice rather perverse.

No, the only person with a cause of action here is Bolea himself. Until and unless he asserts that something happened which violated his rights, the entire argument is bogus. He is the only one who can decide that his lawyer somehow wronged him here. The question is simply not before the court. They decide the arguments presented to them, they can't simply invent one to decide. And Bolea is the only person who can ma…

"Also, it's going to be hard to argue that his lawyers bungled things when he won a huge pile of money."

And then made a decision that meant that in all likelihood he will see either none of, or a tiny fraction of that money, when he could have seen nearly all or all of it by virtue of a liability insurance pay out.

Re: Peter Thiel, Tech Billionaire, Reveals Secret War with Gawker

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post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being able to use the courts to sue for defamation is pretty widely accepted as legit by most if not all strains of libertarianism. It's actually a clear example of a valid case in which governmental authority is necessary.

It is, but that's not what Thiel is trying to do. He is backing an unrelated lawsuit in an effort to squash them. The action that he had a problem with, them outing him, is in no way illegal, so he got into a proxy war against them. That is unquestionably unethical. The ethical thing for him to do would be to come at them head on in the public arena.

Especially when you champion yourself as taking the moral high ground. "The right to face your acccuser" as opposed to "having them bankroll your opponents behind the scenes".

Re: Peter Thiel, Tech Billionaire, Reveals Secret War with Gawker

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post #292
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the only way you can argue for Peter Thiel's actions is to deny moral realism, then, uh, I think we've said all that we need to say on the topic.

If the only way you can argue against them is to refer to some rules you made up, I agree. In any event "retribution" is an overly simplistic way of looking at what Thiel did. It could also be interpreted as protecting future victims of Gawker. Suppose someone stabs me, and I live. For whatever reason, they get away and continue to run around stabbing people. If at some point in the future, they attempt to stab someo…

What I find funny about this example is that at first I thought the "it happened" argument was going to be used in defense of the person doing the stabbing. Which, of course, it could.

Re: Peter Thiel, Tech Billionaire, Reveals Secret War with Gawker

#300
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the only person with a cause of action here is Bolea himself. Until and unless he asserts that something happened which violated his rights, the entire argument is bogus. He is the only one who can decide that his lawyer somehow wronged him here. The question is simply not before the court. They decide the arguments presented to them, they can't simply invent one to decide. And Bolea is the only person who can ma…

"Also, it's going to be hard to argue that his lawyers bungled things when he won a huge pile of money." And then made a decision that meant that in all likelihood he will see either none of, or a tiny fraction of that money, when he could have seen nearly all or all of it by virtue of a liability insurance pay out.

That depends on the bankruptcy court. Maybe he has enough money and is happier this way? Like I said, anyone other than Bolea arguing this is full of crap. He's the only one who gets to decide what is or is not in his interests.

Until and unless Bolea says otherwise, the uninformed speculation to the contrary is simply absurd.

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