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China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

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Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#281

Post by acbabis »

kbenson wrote: post #278
acbabis wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't it all relative? Couldn't a fully libertarian state make some claims about freedom regarding the US that are similar to the claims the US makes regarding China? No, there's a fundamental difference between living in a country where you have recourse against the government and living in one where you don't. In the US, I am not allowed to say things that are considered slanderous, but I am allowed to say that I…

Considering the second part of my comment, I'm not sure how this is anything but a non sequitur. You start with "No", and then do exactly what I say you should, which is to explain in detail what the problem is, and not just resort to "not free" as your evidence.

My bad. It took me several re-reads of your comment to figure out that you were attacking the usage of the word "freedom" and not comparisons between freedoms in China and other countries.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#282

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

ausjke wrote: post #279
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please educate yourself about what being transgender actually means. To give you a rough idea: If you think that people should use the bathroom that matches their birth certificate, you should expect to meet these people in your bathroom (and yes, I am assuming that you are male): http://www.gardenstateequality.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/0... http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/695/cpsprodpb/10BA6/production/... https://d1…

the key is not about transgender itself, it's about the law, who defines you can be a transgender at will based on what's in your mind when you reach the restroom door, that means any man can get into women's restroom and vice versa any time. I'm sure bad thing will happen due to this rule directly. Some identity card might mitigate this situation, of course it will not get passed as it will be yet another discrimina…

> I'm sure bad thing will happen due to this rule directly.

Like what?

> Some identity card might mitigate this situation, of course it will not get passed as it will be yet another discrimination.

So you would prefer that you cannot go to the toilet without showing ID?

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#283

Post by argonaut »

chrischen wrote: post #74
argonaut wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US media as a whole may not be asking critical questions, but that's not the point of free press. The fact is that the US media is free to ask critical questions, and therefore some , though not all, of the media ask critical questions. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Free to still allows another way to allow the powerful to control and manipulate. In order to truly be a free system the system has to be fair as well, which means more income equality in addition to a free press system. If money controls the "free" press and money distribution is heavily skewed, then it's not really a free press. This is how the US system works.

No it doesn't have to. Stop moving the goalposts. The US has a free press, and under no definition does free necessarily require fair. It would be better if it had a fair press, but it is not necessary for freedom.

You're again letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#284

Post by jack9 »

Thriptic wrote: post #248
qd6pwu4 wrote: post #245

To everyone who hold the 'western value': do you know that one of the biggest jokes of your 'western value' is that you think it applies everywhere in the world in the same form, and you take it as a disguise and do harmful things to the people of other countries(of course, this is all done by the hands of politicians). You don't understand that there can be different values. So when you look at things from this pers…

> As to why CCP is blocking the internet? Because, the blocked sites contains values that is not really about freedom or human rights, instead that is like virus, that will do harm to our values and the interest our the Chinese people. Who defines what is in the best interest for the Chinese people?

and how do you "do harm" to values? Is harm synonymous with change?

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#285

Post by Shenxi »

qd6pwu4 wrote: post #245

To everyone who hold the 'western value': do you know that one of the biggest jokes of your 'western value' is that you think it applies everywhere in the world in the same form, and you take it as a disguise and do harmful things to the people of other countries(of course, this is all done by the hands of politicians). You don't understand that there can be different values. So when you look at things from this pers…

You've pointed out some of the US's flaws, but pointing out that one's critic has flaws doesn't justify the shamelessly blunt repression that the Chinese government prides itself on.

If the perception is that US cultural imperialism is so strong that something as extreme as the Golden Shield is necessary, well, I don't buy it. Regardless, it'd be better to solve that problem itself (international corporations that prey on countries via neoliberalism). But the Golden Shield is more about the Chinese Communist Party maintaining power -- hence the drama around "Tiananmen" searches. The defense of the Golden Shield that's based on a criticism of Western influence seems like misdirection and, apparently, successful propaganda.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#286

Post by kbenson »

acbabis wrote: post #281
kbenson wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering the second part of my comment, I'm not sure how this is anything but a non sequitur. You start with "No", and then do exactly what I say you should, which is to explain in detail what the problem is, and not just resort to "not free" as your evidence.

My bad. It took me several re-reads of your comment to figure out that you were attacking the usage of the word "freedom" and not comparisons between freedoms in China and other countries.

Fair enough. If it took you several readings, then I probably wasn't very clear. At a minimum, our exchange might have clarified my intent for others who were unclear on my point, so I thank you for that.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#287

Post by galdosdi »

jonstokes wrote: post #215
galdosdi wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can definitely articulate your thoughts enough to have a meaningful discussion, your written English is indistinguishable from college graduate level native written English. I am seriously curious what small hint convinced jonstokes your English was not native, because it was too small for me to catch I guess.

I'm an editor, so I have an inordinately fine sense of who makes what kinds of tiny errors.

OH. That actually makes sense.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#288

Post by tmptmp »

What bothers me more is the chilling silence on the issue of human rights violation carried out by the followers of communism [1],[2] by most of the intellectuals (mostly humanities professors) in USA who are very keen on criticizing USA for whatever perceived/projected censorship and violation of human rights. There is a huge possibility that these intellectuals are either crooks who have been paid and bought by the communists and/or are fools ("useful idiots")[3] who believe in the communist propaganda.

For every criticism dealt out against USA for human rights abuse and other governmental crimes/sins, the communist nations must be criticized a 1000 times.

Communism as a ideology is still a great threat to world peace. The followers and believers of communism have wreaked havoc on various parts of the world that matches nothing and these crooks blame the free market based democratic western nations for problems in their own countries.

I don't deny that capitalism has its disadvantages but it is by far the most humane, most successful and most benevolent government/societal system that has existed ever before whereas communism has resulted in extremely corrupt and very abusive government/societal systems in the world.

The things like the communist party chairman, the politburo members, and a bunch of their cronies got the entire benefits in a very skewed manner whereas most of the general public got only hardship should not be forgotten at any cost by freedom lovers.

So, we must not forget that the USA has served the world by taking a stance against this vicious ideology called communism and its equally vicious followers. We must raise this issue every time USA and capitalist free and open market based democracy gets criticized in favor of communism/socialism by the communists/socialists.

Some links you may find interesting here [2], [3], [4].

[1] https://sentinelblog.com/2015/12/10/maos-monstrous-record-ha... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laogai [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot [4] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2017839/Madman-starv... [5] https://tiananmenstremendousachievements.wordpress.com/tag/m...

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#289

Post by zpharer »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #212
ultramancool wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair the issue is a lot more nuanced than that. For example, because of that trade we live in a quite peaceful period. This income in China has been used to bring hundreds of millions of people out of absolute poverty and into a middle class - where people have some luxury money and aren't engaged only in sustenance farming. I think this is an extremely valuable and positive thing, would you really want to stop…

> where people have some luxury money The problem is that when autocratic state have new wealth (via taxing the people you are talking about) they almost always invade their neighbors or at least try to annex some land or settle an old dispute via force. Saddam with Kuwait, Russia with Ukraine, and China with the Spratly islands are obvious examples. It doesn't matter that some Chinese bureaucrat can afford an iPhone…

Lifting 100's of millions of people out of subsistence farming levels of poverty is a massive good. Probably one of the greatest moral accomplishments of the last 100 years. Your comparison to a Chinese bureaucrat buying an iPhone trivializes that.

The idea of committing to a trade policy which would have left them living in extreme poverty sounds horrendously evil. Likewise, pulling trade now could do great harm.

If the worst interpretation of your fears comes to pass, and we get WWIII, then yes. Maybe you're right. However, can you back up your claim with enough certainty to justify harming so many people so greatly?

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#290

Post by zpharer »

poof131 wrote: post #210
ultramancool wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair the issue is a lot more nuanced than that. For example, because of that trade we live in a quite peaceful period. This income in China has been used to bring hundreds of millions of people out of absolute poverty and into a middle class - where people have some luxury money and aren't engaged only in sustenance farming. I think this is an extremely valuable and positive thing, would you really want to stop…

Sure. A good thing. Or possibly a bad thing if we strengthen a tyranny that can’t find a path to freedom for its people. History will tell. What I find most upsetting though is that much of this comes at the expense of the american middle class while the american upper class benefits. So less unrest in one country leads to more in another. Personally, I wish values drove foreign policy more than business. And trade d…

I'd weigh lifting 100's of millions of people out of extreme poverty as much more morally important than avoiding stagnant American middle class wages.
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