Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

washingtonpost.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 311 posts

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#271

Post by tremon »

acbabis wrote: post #265
kbenson wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it all relative? Couldn't a fully libertarian state make some claims about freedom regarding the US that are similar to the claims the US makes regarding China? That's the problem with using something as vague and over-encompassing as "freedom", it's only a step removed from "evil" in how vague it can be. Additionally, all freedoms are not created equal. Is my right to due process as important as my right to be…

> Isn't it all relative? Couldn't a fully libertarian state make some claims about freedom regarding the US that are similar to the claims the US makes regarding China? No, there's a fundamental difference between living in a country where you have recourse against the government and living in one where you don't. In the US, I am not allowed to say things that are considered slanderous, but I am allowed to say that I…

The same is not true in countries without free speech protections.

I'm not convinced. I've seen plenty of (presumably) US citizens complain here that Europe doesn't have free speech, because we have laws to curb hate speech.

Still, we are very much free to discuss and organize against our government.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#272

Post by acbabis »

tremon wrote: post #271
acbabis wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't it all relative? Couldn't a fully libertarian state make some claims about freedom regarding the US that are similar to the claims the US makes regarding China? No, there's a fundamental difference between living in a country where you have recourse against the government and living in one where you don't. In the US, I am not allowed to say things that are considered slanderous, but I am allowed to say that I…

The same is not true in countries without free speech protections. I'm not convinced. I've seen plenty of (presumably) US citizens complain here that Europe doesn't have free speech, because we have laws to curb hate speech. Still, we are very much free to discuss and organize against our government.

If you are allowed to criticize policy, you have a discrete and specific right that people in other parts of the world do not. My point was that saying "it's all relative" doesn't tell the whole story, though I'm beginning to see that that was probably kbenson's point as well.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#273

Post by tremon »

sho wrote: post #257
tvanantwerp wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've got family in China. They're just regular people trying to make in the world, same as me and most everyone else reading this. I'm no fan of the government there, but that's no reason to not work with the people who have little choice but to live under it.

I want to upvote this a hundred times. I've got family in China too and for fuck's sake they are just normal people. Sure, their government is a control freak, but tell me, how much do you like your government? At least theirs manages to build things! And who's about to elect Trump president? The scary truth is that humans can't handle proper free speech, just like they can't handle guns. They should be able to but t…

The scary truth is that humans can't handle proper free speech

I will have to disagree here. In my view, freedoms require training to wield them correctly. Part of that training is social (and hence requires good role models), and part is educational (and requires a good education system). When either of those fail, you can expect problems (extremism in the former, and Trump in the latter case). But that doesn't mean the freedom itself is harmful or even unattainable, it just requires constant maintenance.

I think the current western liberalism, where it is perfectly OK to spread outright lies and counter-social messages on mass media in the name of "free speech", is doomed.

I think the current Chinese propaganda is equally doomed.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#274

Post by thaumasiotes »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #125
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They threaten to shutdown your SIM eventually if they don't have an ID#/passport associated with it. But they are very bad about follow through.

I see. Well, it only had to last a month :).

You'd have to go multiple years for there to be any risk of shutdown at all. I've never even received a threat.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#275

Post by dang »

toss1 wrote: post #196
Hondor wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because people died, doesn't mean we have to honor them and keep hold of what they caused. That's the logic of Christianity. Most soldiers don't really die for any noble purpose, they just fight other soldiers and eventually somebody wins. Nobody knows if the winner will end up good or bad, free or oppressive. It doesn't matter if people got themselves killed because they happened to choose the winning side in a…

Wow, you really think that Roosevelt and Churchill and the societies and they lead were equivalent to those of Hitler, Stalin and Mao? That our democracy, as flawed as it is, is not better than China's one-party, censorship, mobile execution vans? Why have you not moved there yet? Yes, there are are sometimes, even many senseless wars, but that does not mean that all are so. And it certainly does not mean that people…

This comment breaks HN's civility rule by being unduly personal. Please edit that kind of thing out of comments here.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#276

Post by amalag »

diogenescynic wrote: post #188
bad_user wrote: post #67

Of course it does. I wouldn't bet that it will last though. I often tell people how I was born under communism and that what happened before 1989 in Romania and maybe in other Easter European countries makes the 1984 novel seem unrealistic and boring. We had far worst forms of censorship and propaganda, paranoia about being caught with doublethink by nosy neighbors was at al times high, yet everything looked normal,…

>I don't care much about what the Chinese do within their borders. The far more aggravating thing is that we tolerate China, choose to do business with Chinese companies and buy Chinese products. >Now that's fucked up, because we are trading our values, for which people freaking died to win, for short term convenience, also sending the message that it's OK as a country to violate basic human rights, as long as you're…

>Well said. It's ridiculous we enforce labor and environmental laws in the US, then buy products from countries using slaves, sweatshops, and polluting without any regard. We sell out our ideals to save a few bucks.

Some politicians have suggested externality based import duties and I have to agree. We don't need import duties on goods from Germany or other countries with strong regulations, but companies in the USA cannot compete with third world countries with no labor or environmental regulations.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#277

Post by the_af »

seletz wrote: post #247
the_af wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, if that was seletz's point, then I agree with it. I thought he was claiming in the US it was possible to be a dissident without censorship or repression. My mistake!

Well -- I think it's a bit more subtle than that. And maybe a bit more scary. While one would believe that there can be "dissidents" in the US w/o repression based on what one reads on the net -- e.g. the the "US" representing the "free world" yadda yadda ... -- the repressions and censorships are more subtle in general. Also, one must not confuse the US with "the western world". I live in Germany, and I believe that…

Well, it's true that somebody has done it. Those who've done it are either exiled, behind bars, facing suspiciously timed "unrelated" charges that could result in extradition, or anonymous. Not sure that invalidates the point the person you're quoting was making: that there is repression of dangerous ideas in the US.

I'm less familiar with Germany, but I'm willing to bet that while people in principle can say whatever they want (with some exceptions), there are other, less visible forms of repression and/or means of neutralizing those opinions. That they are less overt than in China doesn't mean they are not there.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#278

Post by kbenson »

acbabis wrote: post #265
kbenson wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it all relative? Couldn't a fully libertarian state make some claims about freedom regarding the US that are similar to the claims the US makes regarding China? That's the problem with using something as vague and over-encompassing as "freedom", it's only a step removed from "evil" in how vague it can be. Additionally, all freedoms are not created equal. Is my right to due process as important as my right to be…

> Isn't it all relative? Couldn't a fully libertarian state make some claims about freedom regarding the US that are similar to the claims the US makes regarding China? No, there's a fundamental difference between living in a country where you have recourse against the government and living in one where you don't. In the US, I am not allowed to say things that are considered slanderous, but I am allowed to say that I…

Considering the second part of my comment, I'm not sure how this is anything but a non sequitur. You start with "No", and then do exactly what I say you should, which is to explain in detail what the problem is, and not just resort to "not free" as your evidence.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#279

Post by ausjke »

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #249
ausjke wrote: post #222

What a good comparison to Berlin Wall that is. Never thought about it. Whenever I went to China the VPN-fight-with-GFW has always been a nightmare, and my Android phone could not get updated either as google is 100% blocked there. On the other hand, in USA the is near 100% freedom including the internet, but that does have some side effects itself, e.g. nowadays any gender can get into any restroom depends on what he…

Please educate yourself about what being transgender actually means. To give you a rough idea: If you think that people should use the bathroom that matches their birth certificate, you should expect to meet these people in your bathroom (and yes, I am assuming that you are male): http://www.gardenstateequality.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/0... http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/695/cpsprodpb/10BA6/production/... https://d1…

the key is not about transgender itself, it's about the law, who defines you can be a transgender at will based on what's in your mind when you reach the restroom door, that means any man can get into women's restroom and vice versa any time.

I'm sure bad thing will happen due to this rule directly.

Some identity card might mitigate this situation, of course it will not get passed as it will be yet another discrimination.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#280

Post by whack »

To play devil's advocate: The US does also engages in censorship. Non-citizens are heavily restricted in the kind of political lobbying and contributions that they are allowed to make. We can argue about the distinction between political contributions/lobbying vs speech, but let's examine the intent behind the US laws: to limit the influence that foreign countries/organizations can have on domestic politics.

One could credibly argue that Chinese censorship of the internet falls along the same vein. A completely open internet would immediately result in China being inundated by western perspectives and arguments. An inundation that would be disproportionate, simply due to the west's economic lead and online headstart. One can understand any non-western-aligned nation being concerned about its domestic politics being strongly influenced by the western-free-speech-megaphone.

Overall, I still think that internet censorship does more harm than good, but it's worth considering the above.

Post reply on HN