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Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

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Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#171

Post by Kell »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #120

As others have pointed out this can happen in France given the way in which laws are prosecuted, my sister lives there part time and really likes this aspect of the country. That said, its really interesting to watch such powerful interests dance around (in a more general sense) shooting each other. The whole scheme which companies like Apple, Google, others use to "legitimately" minimize their tax burden and the fin…

>this can happen in France given the way in which laws are prosecuted,

I am a French lawyer.

So I have to disagree. This is not the case here. The prosecutors are plainly saying that Google did something outright illegal by misinterpreting on purpose a clause in the French Irish tax convention.

According to the prosecutors in this case Google used a clause sheltering pure advertisement and research subsidiaries of Irish companies from having to pay French tax. But this clause is clearly intended to protect subsidiaries doing market research and advertising a product in advance of actually selling it in France (And also for subsidiaries doing purely informative business (tech support, warranty management etc.) and pure research).

So Google is saying that they do advertisement, so that this clause apply to them, but a reading of the part of the convention that was made public by the prosecutors, clearly show that this is apparently wrong. But the fact that I still haven't found the full convention is a huge caveat :).

So most of developed countries would have enough to prosecute.

Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#172

Post by AnthonyMouse »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #131
ChuckMcM wrote: post #120

As others have pointed out this can happen in France given the way in which laws are prosecuted, my sister lives there part time and really likes this aspect of the country. That said, its really interesting to watch such powerful interests dance around (in a more general sense) shooting each other. The whole scheme which companies like Apple, Google, others use to "legitimately" minimize their tax burden and the fin…

Is this pressure enough to force out "legitimate methods of EU tax avoidance" via legislation? It's really, really hard for me to sympathize with US tech companies given their financial situation: > "Apple, Microsoft and Google Hold 23% Of All US Corporate Cash Outside the Finance Sector > Apple leads the pack with $215.7 billion in cash, followed by Microsoft at $102.6 billion, and Google at $73.1 billion. http://ww…

> Is this pressure enough to force out "legitimate methods of EU tax avoidance" via legislation?

The problem is still that nobody can answer this question: If an international company designs its products in America, manufactures them in Asia, sells them in France and has its headquarters in Ireland, what portion of its total income is it supposed to report in each country?

Any kind of non-circular definition effectively converts the "income tax" into a tax on the thing that happens in the country where the income has to be reported, which nobody wants to admit (because people don't like sales taxes or job taxes), and which nobody even actually wants because it will then discourage that thing from happening in that country.

What people want is for the money to come from the corporation without that fact altering anyone's behavior in any way. But that's not how taxes work. If you want to collect taxes from companies that sell things in your country, you have a de facto sales tax and everything that comes with it. Either accept that and call it what it is or admit that you would rather get the money from somewhere else (or not have it).

Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#173

Post by atomwaffel »

allendoerfer wrote: post #141
gravypod wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We might have our kinks, but I don't think that most of the people in jail ended up in there because "Yea, what you were doing was allowed by the law, but you know we kind of didn't like it". When that finally starts to happen in the USA, you can count on me being in the streets protesting. Edit: You may also want to consider the current practices in Germany regarding frivolous law suits against websites. We aren't t…

>Edit: You may also want to consider the current practices in Germany regarding frivolous law suits against websites. We aren't the only country with this problem. So is every place. Can you elaborate?

I assume they are referring to the cease-and-desist letters sent to websites that don't publish an "Impressum"[1] (information about the person responsible for the website, including an address and phone number). It's a holdover from print publications, and there's a bit of legal uncertainty as to whether it applies to small private websites, but the threshold for it being required is really low.

Unsurprisingly, this has created an industry of scummy law firms that specialise in finding infringing websites and sending them cease-and-desist letters with a bill for their legal fees attached.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressum

Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#174

Post by curiousgal »

tyrust wrote: post #164
curiousgal wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it unusual to be a user of both Reddit and HN? I didn't think the two were mutually exclusive.

No, but it is unusual to simply copy-paste comments from one forum to another. Especially a post that contains (what one would assume is) your opinion.

Yes that certainly is unusual. I don't know whether you're inferring that's the case with me or not but here http://i.imgur.com/siomNYH.png I hope that constitutes enough of a proof.

Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#175

Post by mineshaftgap »

allendoerfer wrote: post #91
mike_hearn wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For example, as an Irish company, you can open a subsidiary in France to do business in France. The whole point of the EU single market is that you do not have to do that. You can set up shop in Ireland and sell to the French market until the cows come home. You only owe Irish taxes (modulo the recent completely crazy VAT changes). Laws that say "forget the law, anything we think is unreasonable is illegal" are a gro…

>Laws that say "forget the law, anything we think is unreasonable is illegal" are a growing problem in Europe. It makes the EU look like fools Not trying to start a flamewar here, but the common German/European perspective on the US legal system consists of corporations owning it (because of huge costs), consumers abusing it ("cat in microwave/washing machine/toaster", unreasonable compensations, class action lawsuit…

None of those things will help Europe unfuck itself, but go ahead and look away.

Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#176

Post by inlined »

ballooney wrote: post #168
lavezzi wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That coffee wasn't just hot, it was well beyond expected temperature and gave her third degree burns as a result. "Liebeck sought to settle with McDonald's for $20,000 to cover her actual and anticipated expenses. Her past medical expenses were $10,500; her anticipated future medical expenses were approximately $2,500; and her daughter's loss of income was approximately $5,000 for a total of approximately $18,000. In…

I'd expect it to be up to 100 celcius at sea level pressure, because it had just been boiled. If it's hotter than that it wouldn't be a liquid. How can less-than-boiling be 'well beyond' the expected temperature of just-made tea or coffee? Your accusation is totally absurd. Maybe I'm just being too European.

A closed container allows pressure to rise which allows superheating.

Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#177

Post by NetStrikeForce »

unlinker wrote: post #35
0xFFC wrote: post #26

Idk, but I feel Google is under tremendous pressure right now.Oracle likely going to win (they have best legal team in whole industry). Europe will hit Google with antitrust and now this.Microsot is coming for them, and they(Microsoft) positioned themselves very well. Maybe I don't realize correctly, but it seems Google is going to have hard time with all of this.

I understand Microsoft is making progress, but I can't see how the are positioning themselves very well against Google in the markets they compete on.

I can only think of one or two. Windows being the most used desktop OS and Cloud: Azure being bigger, with more offerings and more than double market share than Google's Cloud. E.g.: https://www.statista.com/chart/4546/cloud-infrastructure-mar...

Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#178

Post by landryraccoon »

allendoerfer wrote: post #91
mike_hearn wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For example, as an Irish company, you can open a subsidiary in France to do business in France. The whole point of the EU single market is that you do not have to do that. You can set up shop in Ireland and sell to the French market until the cows come home. You only owe Irish taxes (modulo the recent completely crazy VAT changes). Laws that say "forget the law, anything we think is unreasonable is illegal" are a gro…

>Laws that say "forget the law, anything we think is unreasonable is illegal" are a growing problem in Europe. It makes the EU look like fools Not trying to start a flamewar here, but the common German/European perspective on the US legal system consists of corporations owning it (because of huge costs), consumers abusing it ("cat in microwave/washing machine/toaster", unreasonable compensations, class action lawsuit…

> Remembered one more: Juries deciding whether murderers are guilty or not. Simply unthinkable over here.

Can you clarify? A jury trial is supposed to benefit the defendant.

Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#179

Post by AnthonyMouse »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #169
toomuchtodo wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this pressure enough to force out "legitimate methods of EU tax avoidance" via legislation? It's really, really hard for me to sympathize with US tech companies given their financial situation: > "Apple, Microsoft and Google Hold 23% Of All US Corporate Cash Outside the Finance Sector > Apple leads the pack with $215.7 billion in cash, followed by Microsoft at $102.6 billion, and Google at $73.1 billion. http://ww…

I agree, back when the UK was complaining about Google I was hoping that would push them into unifying tax policy. The challenge though is getting everyone on board, without a common vision of how it should work, you won't get progress.

> I agree, back when the UK was complaining about Google I was hoping that would push them into unifying tax policy.

It's not just tax policy. The countries that have less well educated workers or less wealthy consumers want to give companies some incentive to come there. If the tax rules were the same they would use lower rates. If the rates were also the same then would use the tax revenue to fund subsidies or projects that act as de facto tax breaks.

Your choices are essentially "countries compete with each other for investment capital" and "world government with completely uniform laws." And the second one is Very Bad: Monoculture, nowhere to run if it goes wrong, single target for corruption and capture, etc.

Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#180

Post by tobltobs »

Kurtz79 wrote: post #10
te_chris wrote: post #5

Good. The way multinationals are allowed to take the resources of the various nation states they operate in while contributing nothing themselves, yet still claiming to be 'people' and demanding all sorts of rights, is beyond the joke. Before anyone says it, yes I'm aware they pay GST/VAT/PAYE etc, but if I have to pay company tax, why don't they?

" multinationals are allowed to take the resources of the various nation states they operate in while contributing nothing themselves". I agree with the sentiment that they should receive equal treatment than local/smaller companies, but saying that they contribute "nothing" is unfair and ingenuous, they do in terms of creation of local jobs and the direct and indirect taxes they pay for them.

Please not the trickle down theory again.
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