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China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

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Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#261
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have the freedom to denounce China's attitude towards censorship Just like the Chinese have the freedom to denounce US imperalism. Now, try something more serious, like calling for actual Western war criminals, and those of Western allies, to be brought to court. You won't go to jail; because nobody (who matters) will listen to you. And what would happen if you managed to actually start something that had a real…

Are you suggesting that there is some sort of equivalence between people refusing to listen to your stuff, and getting sent to jail for your words/beliefs?

I said what I said. Why repeat it? Your question sounds like I couldn't be possibly serious. Assume I am serious.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#262
post #7

> China has achieved this. It can communicate with the outside world, meanwhile Western opinion cannot easily penetrate as ideological tools Media is powerful. And even in the US, most of us self-censor our news (liberal vs conservative media) to the point where we're largely reading only views we agree on (HN is no different in that regard). I always find it amusing that we can all read the same news with different…

>most of us self-censor our news (liberal vs conservative media) to the point where we're largely reading only views we agree on (HN is no different in that regard).

I wouldn't call what happens on HN self censorship. HN is heavily censored. One says things the authorities here agree with or one's posts are down voted off the board. New users don't have the ability to down vote. Sometimes user?id=dang steps in and deletes posts personally.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#263
post #247
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, if that was seletz's point, then I agree with it. I thought he was claiming in the US it was possible to be a dissident without censorship or repression. My mistake!

Well -- I think it's a bit more subtle than that. And maybe a bit more scary. While one would believe that there can be "dissidents" in the US w/o repression based on what one reads on the net -- e.g. the the "US" representing the "free world" yadda yadda ... -- the repressions and censorships are more subtle in general. Also, one must not confuse the US with "the western world". I live in Germany, and I believe that…

> I live in Germany, and I believe that you could be a dissident here w/o censorship.

Just don't say "The Nazis are great and I really wish they were back in power." That'll get you straight-up jailed under section 86a of Strafgesetzbuch, if I understand correctly. Everything else is on the table. ;)

http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#264
See Reddit and Facebook for a domestic examples.

I know there are differing views on Reddit in particular, but reality simply is that the "moderation" has become well beyond moderation and is well into censorship and authoritarian type of control and domination of the conversation that totally and fundamentally breaks the foundation of how Reddit is supposed to work.

There is really no legitimate excuse (which is what they always are) to censor, remove, and ban users and comments that are not all out direct threats to commit criminal acts or spam. What is going on on Reddit in particular is a thoroughly liberal authoritarianism that is heavily dominated by a kind of perverse paternalistic supremacist, i.e., protecting users from hearing and seeing things that the authoritarian types deem unauthorized.

Reddit, as example, is intended to allow the community, through a kind of civil society, determine the dialogue and conversation; but with ever spiking frequency, Reddit in particular is being sabotaged as the authoritarians remove the community's ability to shape the conversation.

The mods on Reddit in particular are thoroughly acting as common authoritarian goons by patrolling the discussions and routinely removing comments and conversations they decree as unauthorized or very much like "speaking against the regime". It's clearly an authoritarian mentality eating its way through Reddit at the moment.

Sure, some will say "private website, blah blah blah" but that's not the point really. It's about civil responsibility, which, ironically, the liberal authoritarian goons on Reddit supposedly frequently espouse regarding all sorts of other topics. As the internet continues to be consolidated and shrinks and is ever more controlled by the likes of Facebook that is controlled by Zuckerberg, who's goal is for Facebook to replace the internet, you will have ever more increasingly controlled spaces for public discussions and at some point there will be no non-private spaces for discussion to any effective degree. At that point we have come full circle and devolved back to a monarchical and aristocratic type of social structure where all of society and it's people only operate in "private websites" and the justification is that because the ruling class control everything and all forms of communication, like Kings, Dukes, and Princes, you are claimed to have no right to have conversations.

I know many, rather short sighted people may dismiss what I say, but reality is that is a rather counter-intuitive and unexpected manner, the internet is really leading to far more control and consolidation of power and homogenization of society and collapse of diversity. It's rather odd that large segments of society are all supportive of things that will end in demise of the very tings they espouse.

In many ways, the current phase humanity is in with regard to neo-liberalist views, is akin to investment in a ponzi scheme. Everyone (liberal, tech, globalist, etc types) is all Golden Age level indulged in excess and self-gratification because they invested all their money in a ponzi scheme that has huge returns on paper, but the day will come when you can't withdraw the false returns or the scheme collapses altogether.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we have the same definition for freedom. Here's one freedom that we do have: I have the freedom to denounce China's attitude towards censorship and you're free to counteract with other arguments, leading us to dialog, on a public forum. And on people dying, that's just another way of saying that great sacrifice has been made for us to enjoy the lifestyle and freedoms that we do have, so we can't trade t…

Isn't it all relative? Couldn't a fully libertarian state make some claims about freedom regarding the US that are similar to the claims the US makes regarding China? That's the problem with using something as vague and over-encompassing as "freedom", it's only a step removed from "evil" in how vague it can be. Additionally, all freedoms are not created equal. Is my right to due process as important as my right to be…

> Isn't it all relative? Couldn't a fully libertarian state make some claims about freedom regarding the US that are similar to the claims the US makes regarding China?

No, there's a fundamental difference between living in a country where you have recourse against the government and living in one where you don't.

In the US, I am not allowed to say things that are considered slanderous, but I am allowed to say that I should be allowed to say things that are slanderous. This makes it at least possible to change the status quo.

The same is not true in countries without free speech protections.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdote: On Omegle a while ago, I chat with a Chinese girl, all Chinese guys I met there were always anxious about how other people would see their country, so I proceed to explain that I grew up very fond of many things about China, martial arts, silk clothes, temples, food, pictural art, kanjis. The girl listens happily and then tells me 'you know, not everything in China is good, ... ' Then 3 seconds blank. Then…

Seems more like you were successfully trolled.

Could be, but I spent a huge amount of time on Omegle, stats from 10K conversations, and that kind of troll was almost non existant. American teens trying to spot sex seekers (to leverage in positive or negative ways) = 70% of the users over a 9 month period. The rest were mostly bored cubicle workers. Chinese users had recurrent pattern: struggling to type, low english level, similar center of interests. That girl was very similar (except for the english level). Maybe you're right but it didn't feel like this at the time.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There certainly is propaganda masquerading as news in America (and other Western nations), and it's absolutely true that some people are deceived by this. However, there is also a wide variety of media, and it's certainly possible to find articles that are well-developed and not "full of bullshit". (I imagine there are also ways of getting information beyond the curated "official news" in China; not living there, I'm…

>However, there is also a wide variety of media By "wide variety" you mean those 6 corporations/oligarchies, many of which have been owned by the same families for decades, even centuries (i.e. Hearst)? The "variety" is just targeted marketing. For example, the communications chief at Time Warner (CNN's parent) and the CEO at News Corp (Fox News' parent) are "close confidants" who worked together for 11+ years, even…

Yes, this is why one of the first medias you should "filter" is television news for this reason. I find US TV news (broadly speaking) fairly low quality to be honest. I also think US television news in particular is where you will find the strongest direct links between media and political figures.

If you look beyond TV, you'll find a fair selection of weekly-to-monthly magazines (and even a few independent papers) available, in addition to some foreign publications that are readily available. Honestly, just as an example, I'm looking at the Pulitzer Prize winners, and I'm not seeing too many owned by those 6 corporations / oligarchies mentioned in the Business Insider article. Sure there are "big national" papers outside the big 6 (NY Times, Boston Globe, etc.) that win, of course, but even some smaller regional papers with smaller independent ownership win their fair share.

Social / web media in the US allows instant links to this ecosystem, if you want. And, at the moment, this seems to be free of the mass censorship type efforts China employs. To be honest, I bet in certain demographics, more people get news from Google / Facebook / Reddit / etc. than anywhere else.

That's the good news. The bad news is that portions of the social web are flooded with a lot of low-quality "clickbait" that is more populist. Propaganda? Perhaps sometimes. If not, it's still annoying either way. This you have to filter as well.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#268
I'm not so sure that countries will be all that enthused to follow China's example. Aside from the technical and infrastructure costs, it's evident that they're using a huge amount of human manpower. A lot of countries don't have the knowhow or billions to do it.

At this point, I suspect the lesson will be to block all sites except those that force people to use their real names, and arrest them if they say something unapproved. Intimidation is pretty cheap.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair the issue is a lot more nuanced than that. For example, because of that trade we live in a quite peaceful period. This income in China has been used to bring hundreds of millions of people out of absolute poverty and into a middle class - where people have some luxury money and aren't engaged only in sustenance farming. I think this is an extremely valuable and positive thing, would you really want to stop…

Sure. A good thing. Or possibly a bad thing if we strengthen a tyranny that can’t find a path to freedom for its people. History will tell. What I find most upsetting though is that much of this comes at the expense of the american middle class while the american upper class benefits. So less unrest in one country leads to more in another. Personally, I wish values drove foreign policy more than business. And trade d…

> Europe, with all it’s interconnections and trade has blown apart in a world war twice in the last century.

That's a fair point. Hopefully the internet and easier travel helps mitigate future conflict.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where people have some luxury money The problem is that when autocratic state have new wealth (via taxing the people you are talking about) they almost always invade their neighbors or at least try to annex some land or settle an old dispute via force. Saddam with Kuwait, Russia with Ukraine, and China with the Spratly islands are obvious examples. It doesn't matter that some Chinese bureaucrat can afford an iPhone…

> The West is probably looking at another shooting war with either of these countries sooner or later due to their unilateral aggression against our allies. And the alternative where we try to economically suppress them works so much better? It's not like the cold war didn't lead to it's own share of nail-biting episodes where we worried there would be full nuclear war. > It seems like we lifted them out of poverty t…

"Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys." --P.J. O'Rourke

Such sentiments are not strictly limited to China. If a government acts like an irresponsible child, talks like an irresponsible child, and trades like an irresponsible child, it is probably finally ready to get drunk and have a drag race with the big boys down in the flood control culvert behind the high sch-err... U.N. building.

Many nations have done things that shock the conscience beyond the normal human capacity for moral outrage. Some of those things were based on sincere beliefs, and a desire to serve a greater good, as defined by those serving it.

I'm not even exactly certain what is required for a government to not act like a sociopathic, immature, hormone-crazed teenaged boy.

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