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China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

washingtonpost.com

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Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#251

Post by allemagne »

eob wrote: post #43
zhte415 wrote: post #10

China's firewall is largely constructed to create technology transfer towards China. This may be in the form of hindering sales for comapanies they may have interesting opportunities for investment, from sports shoes to embedded microchips, to financial products. It is also part of a much greater Golden Shield network. But a lot has changed over the past 5 years. A contrast of goals/objectives: the Golden Shield form…

> China's firewall is largely constructed to create technology transfer towards China. That's been a huge effect of the GFW, but is there material indicating it was the original purpose? My understanding was that much of the explosion in Chinese censorship tech happened as a way to prevent social media from gaining control over the news cycle. (i.e., when a train wreck occurs, the Party prefers stick-to-the-facts new…

>when a train wreck occurs, the Party prefers stick-to-the-facts news coverage over whose-to-blame social media mobs

Why would you assume this, when far more self-interested motives seem obvious?

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#252

Post by allemagne »

agumonkey wrote: post #137
dasil003 wrote: post #30

I don't subscribe to common western black and white views on US vs Chinese freedom, and in fact I am fairly paranoid about the US government overreach of power, however I don't see that Chinese-style internet censorship has any applicability to the US or European governments. I'm far more concerned about the power exterted by increasingly large corporations who want extract as much rent from the network as possible.…

Anecdote: On Omegle a while ago, I chat with a Chinese girl, all Chinese guys I met there were always anxious about how other people would see their country, so I proceed to explain that I grew up very fond of many things about China, martial arts, silk clothes, temples, food, pictural art, kanjis. The girl listens happily and then tells me 'you know, not everything in China is good, ... ' Then 3 seconds blank. Then…

Seems more like you were successfully trolled.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#253

Post by PJDK »

qd6pwu4 wrote: post #245

To everyone who hold the 'western value': do you know that one of the biggest jokes of your 'western value' is that you think it applies everywhere in the world in the same form, and you take it as a disguise and do harmful things to the people of other countries(of course, this is all done by the hands of politicians). You don't understand that there can be different values. So when you look at things from this pers…

>You put 'human rights' all day long beside your mouth, haha, but never really investigate if human rights in China really worse than western countries. US government criticizes the Chinese government for this all day long but never say nothing about their arabic friends. And Snowden is from US, right?

But how exactly are we to investigate China? Can a western journalist (or indeed any journalist) travel freely around China with no minders? Can they interview people and freely publish their opinions without fear of any ill effects on those speaking?

Is uniting the country really what it wants anyhow (maybe a few people in Tibet or Xinjiang are not so enthusiastic as you?).

Your argument rests on "I'm pretty happy and hopefully everyone else is too" but you have no way at all of knowing that.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#254

Post by AlgorithmicTime »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #145
bad_user wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we have the same definition for freedom. Here's one freedom that we do have: I have the freedom to denounce China's attitude towards censorship and you're free to counteract with other arguments, leading us to dialog, on a public forum. And on people dying, that's just another way of saying that great sacrifice has been made for us to enjoy the lifestyle and freedoms that we do have, so we can't trade t…

> I have the freedom to denounce China's attitude towards censorship Just like the Chinese have the freedom to denounce US imperalism. Now, try something more serious, like calling for actual Western war criminals, and those of Western allies, to be brought to court. You won't go to jail; because nobody (who matters) will listen to you. And what would happen if you managed to actually start something that had a real…

Examples of western war criminals who haven't been charged? Or is this just your political stance against anything the US/west does?

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#255

Post by Pica_soO »

restalis wrote: post #156
justsaysmthng wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The far more aggravating thing is that we tolerate China, choose to do business with Chinese companies and buy Chinese products. A trade embargo (aka cold war) would be a lot worse for everyone involved.. Leads to arms race and threats of war, even less freedom and more injustice for the people (eg North Korea). > we are trading our values, for which people freaking died to win, for short term convenience .. Yeah,…

"Don't get carried away with "dying for .. something", most often this is not true - most died because delusional leaders sent them into battle ... only after the fact their death got dressed into "honorable cause".." There is a broad spectrum of (personal) causes that leads one to follow an order which inherently brings with it the risk of dying. Many deaths were of people that did not had any real choice other than…

I think one condition for following orders is a lack of knowledge about what you get yourself into. You sign up to fight talibs, but end up driving a armored vehicle through a fanatic crowd, which throws there children in front of your car to stop you.

Not knowing what nightmares you sign up for, plus the group pressure of a replacement tribe/family, those are the ingredients cooked with in hells kitchen.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#256

Post by SEJeff »

flatM wrote: post #182
bad_user wrote: post #67

Of course it does. I wouldn't bet that it will last though. I often tell people how I was born under communism and that what happened before 1989 in Romania and maybe in other Easter European countries makes the 1984 novel seem unrealistic and boring. We had far worst forms of censorship and propaganda, paranoia about being caught with doublethink by nosy neighbors was at al times high, yet everything looked normal,…

I know communism left a big scar on you, which is totally understandable. The Romanian Communist government was a puppet one imposed by Stalin's Red Army, which has no legitimacy anyway. That is not the case for China. The Chinese Communist Party has led the Chinese people to resist the Japanese invaders in World War II for eight years, which gave them the legitimacy back then. The economical progress they led in Chi…

But some people might disagree:

http://www.voanews.com/content/china-expands-mass-re-educati...

http://www.tibetjustice.org/reports/children/detention/b.htm...

I won't pretend the US is peaches and roses, but our human rights abuses (CIA black sites, Guantanamo, etc) don't even hold a candle to many of the atrocities that happen in China. There simply isn't much of a comparison.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#257

Post by sho »

tvanantwerp wrote: post #153
bad_user wrote: post #67

Of course it does. I wouldn't bet that it will last though. I often tell people how I was born under communism and that what happened before 1989 in Romania and maybe in other Easter European countries makes the 1984 novel seem unrealistic and boring. We had far worst forms of censorship and propaganda, paranoia about being caught with doublethink by nosy neighbors was at al times high, yet everything looked normal,…

I've got family in China. They're just regular people trying to make in the world, same as me and most everyone else reading this. I'm no fan of the government there, but that's no reason to not work with the people who have little choice but to live under it.

I want to upvote this a hundred times. I've got family in China too and for fuck's sake they are just normal people. Sure, their government is a control freak, but tell me, how much do you like your government? At least theirs manages to build things! And who's about to elect Trump president?

The scary truth is that humans can't handle proper free speech, just like they can't handle guns. They should be able to but they can't. It would be nice if they could but they can't. Unless and until we embrace actual eugenics, and can weed out that crazy segment who always ruins everything, we can't have nice things. But we can't face that possibility, so we either get censorship and gun control or the good ol' USA massacre of the week and Trump.

I am not against democracy, but I think the current western liberalism, where it is perfectly OK to spread outright lies and counter-social messages on mass media in the name of "free speech", is doomed.

I've mentioned Trump twice and for good reason. I think Americans underestimate just how bad their political situation looks from the outside. Not only the gridlock in congress, but the United States, supposedly and self-appointedly the shining light of democracy for the entire world, is about to elect this idiotic, unqualified populist blowhard. It is really hard to make any kind of defense of that. The USA is currently and enthusiastically proving every bad thing the CPC said about it, free speech, and democracy in general, absolutely right.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#258

Post by JupiterMoon »

toss1 wrote: post #196
Hondor wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because people died, doesn't mean we have to honor them and keep hold of what they caused. That's the logic of Christianity. Most soldiers don't really die for any noble purpose, they just fight other soldiers and eventually somebody wins. Nobody knows if the winner will end up good or bad, free or oppressive. It doesn't matter if people got themselves killed because they happened to choose the winning side in a…

Wow, you really think that Roosevelt and Churchill and the societies and they lead were equivalent to those of Hitler, Stalin and Mao? That our democracy, as flawed as it is, is not better than China's one-party, censorship, mobile execution vans? Why have you not moved there yet? Yes, there are are sometimes, even many senseless wars, but that does not mean that all are so. And it certainly does not mean that people…

> Roosevelt and Churchill and the societies and they lead were equivalent to those of Hitler, Stalin and Mao

Russia and China were on the same side as the US and UK in the second world war.

> Seriously, please learn some actual history (or at least don't spout the ignorance)

OK...

EDIT Not sure why this would be drive by down voted?

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#259

Post by alexchantavy »

> On the Sina Weibo microblogging site, his post was deleted by censors, and his newspaper soon afterward published an opinion piece defending the barrier and attacking Western media for hating it so much.

I'd love to read this piece, I'm genuinely curious on how the GFW can be seen as a positive thing for ordinary people because I really can't see it as defensible.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#260

Post by thaumasiotes »

ajdlinux wrote: post #99
zhte415 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> a much bigger thing (Golden Shield) that involves submitting photocopies of IDs to get a mobile phone SIM > I can assure you this is not current Chinese policy. It is the law: to get a SIM card, must submit ID card scan or passport scan.

Last time I was in China (late 2014) I had to provide a photocopy of my Australian passport to obtain a China Mobile SIM. Maybe it's changed since then, but I certainly can't imagine them being any more liberal than Australia, where you are required to submit a driver's licence number or a similar level of identity verification in order to activate a prepaid SIM. That said, I can't imagine it being too hard to bribe…

You can easily buy a mobile SIM on the street without showing ID. No bribing involved.
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