Broken English, and most of the few comments you have in your profile are pro-China. Hmmmm.....
Um, not a native English speaker here. Though as long as I can articulate my thoughts to have a meaningful discussion, I don't think that's being an issue. I would rather you focus on the topic and contribute your thoughts or counter-arguments, than focusing on trivia or throw off 5 cents party stuff to close this fruitful conversation.
China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works
231–240 of 311 posts
Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works
#232Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works
#233Of course it does. I wouldn't bet that it will last though. I often tell people how I was born under communism and that what happened before 1989 in Romania and maybe in other Easter European countries makes the 1984 novel seem unrealistic and boring. We had far worst forms of censorship and propaganda, paranoia about being caught with doublethink by nosy neighbors was at al times high, yet everything looked normal,…
It's... more complicated than that.
China has a rich cultural history of collectivism that extends back several millennia. Eastern values are not the same as western values -- something Americans especially struggle to grasp. For better or for worse, eastern cultures (and China especially) emphasize the collective (company/family/country) over the individual. So I wouldn't bank on that social dissent being as strong as it was in the former Soviet bloc.
The wild card here is what happens when an entire generation has to suffer because of the mistakes of their parents. That's the situation that is quickly looming in China -- they've had many years of strong growth on the back of a rapidly urbanizing population, but they have an aging population and have been below zero population growth for decades.
They may very well come to see their former leaders as corrupt and self-serving -- but any revolution will likely be slow and happen through established channels. That's the Chinese way; it's impossible to change direction quickly in a nation of 1.3 billion people. The harmony of the collective is valued over the needs of any individual, so while change may need to happen, it will happen in an orderly and controlled manner. Chinese leaders would privately admit that their country is not perfect, but that change in China happens more slowly than in the west. But ultimately I think they also believe that a society with more freedom and creativity is the only way to effectively compete with the western powers.
> Money trumps everything, great thing to teach our kinds, kudos folks.
Name a time in history when this has not been the case. The US won the cold war not because our democratic ideals were better or more just, but because capitalist competition is the only self-equilizing solution to the tragedy of the commons. Which is basically the same as saying "money trumps ideals".
In fact, human rights issues in the US only get solved when they become a threat to our economic interests. See desegregation, women's suffrage, the LGBT movement, etc. They only get addressed when American economic interests realized that being more inclusive leads to economic growth by creating more members of the consumer class. Unjust discrimination creates market space from which a potential competitor could gain a foothold, so it's a strategic advantage to not divide your customer base on any dimension other than market segments that align with your product portfolio.
Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works
#234"The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it" -- John Gilmore. Even back in the slashdot days I always thought this oft-repeated quote was more of a hopeful rallying cry than an actual statement of fact. And I think it's been clear for at least ten years that it's definitely not true.
Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works
#235Earlier quoted context omitted.
What about North Korea? Why does it last there? Why don't they revolt? But actually, a more relevant question would be, why haven't they already? How much suffering can they take? I'm Romanian too. The censorship, oppression, and whatever other bad thing you might want to refer to, will last as long as the powers that be want it to last. When our "revolution" happened, people didn't even know what to think of it when…
Dude, you're too pessimistic, much like all of our Romanian brethren :) Not to glorify our own revolution, because there isn't much to glorify about it, but the spark triggering a revolution is never conscious and it's by definition a violent process, so of course people do not want revolutions. It's not like they were speaking about it on forums, it's not like they woke up one day and decided to have it. And yes, yo…
Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works
#236I'd like to add one more which has been ignored: the GFW/Golden Shield was built to uphold the central government's authority over other provinces.
One-to-many propaganda is the most important leverage for Beijing to suppress provincial rivals.
And I assert the same propaganda leverage applys to the relationship between Washington D.C./Newyork and other states in the U.S. as well as the relationship between the U.S. and its allies.
Censoring/manipulating the internet is not merely for silencing individuals.
Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works
#237Earlier quoted context omitted.
Um, not a native English speaker here. Though as long as I can articulate my thoughts to have a meaningful discussion, I don't think that's being an issue. I would rather you focus on the topic and contribute your thoughts or counter-arguments, than focusing on trivia or throw off 5 cents party stuff to close this fruitful conversation.
...I actually thought you were a native speaker at first. Your English is pretty good and it's easy to understand your thoughts.
Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works
#238Earlier quoted context omitted.
We weren't exactly paragons of virtue in WWII. Women, people of colour, LGBT - if you were any of those, your freedoms were a pale reflection of those enjoyed by the broader society. However, as is now clear, the basic values of human dignity and our shared humanity allowed for processes that made things better for those, and other, communities. We have a way to go yet, but we are making progress. The issue is not to…
>Even Churchill's promise to fight until all Europe was free was only half kept, for half of Europe fell behind an iron curtain And in the other half minorities such as homosexuals were persecuted. Including Alan Turing, who in WW2 helped break the ciphers of the German military. >All we have to do is stand fast with our freedoms Yes, our freedoms (see above)...
However you are missing the bigger point, western democracies are almost always leading the way with more rights than any one else. For how homosexuals were treated in Germany see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_homosexuals_in_...
Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works
#239Earlier quoted context omitted.
Um, not a native English speaker here. Though as long as I can articulate my thoughts to have a meaningful discussion, I don't think that's being an issue. I would rather you focus on the topic and contribute your thoughts or counter-arguments, than focusing on trivia or throw off 5 cents party stuff to close this fruitful conversation.
You can definitely articulate your thoughts enough to have a meaningful discussion, your written English is indistinguishable from college graduate level native written English. I am seriously curious what small hint convinced jonstokes your English was not native, because it was too small for me to catch I guess.
Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works
#240What a good comparison to Berlin Wall that is. Never thought about it. Whenever I went to China the VPN-fight-with-GFW has always been a nightmare, and my Android phone could not get updated either as google is 100% blocked there. On the other hand, in USA the is near 100% freedom including the internet, but that does have some side effects itself, e.g. nowadays any gender can get into any restroom depends on what he…
Well? What about them? What exactly is being done to their rights?