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China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

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Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#191

Post by xixi77 »

kristopolous wrote: post #155
Hondor wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming that people everywhere value their working conditions equally. They don't. If you already have plenty of money for food, shelter and health care, then you can start worrying about workplace safety and comfort. Otherwise, you'll probably tolerate longer work hours if it's the only way to feed your family or care for your sick grandparents. Boycotting those countries is only going to make their populati…

Human rights are rights for humans - not just a luxury of those with free time and money. If people can be coerced to waiving their rights, then the mechanism of oppression changes - not the oppression itself. Second, boycotting isn't as effective as demands. When consumer bases set labor, environmental and other standards on imports, historically speaking, compliance follows. Lastly, I'd welcome lots of immigrants.…

I am not sure why you are conflating labor & environmental laws and human rights.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#192

Post by xori »

justsaysmthng wrote: post #86
bad_user wrote: post #67

Of course it does. I wouldn't bet that it will last though. I often tell people how I was born under communism and that what happened before 1989 in Romania and maybe in other Easter European countries makes the 1984 novel seem unrealistic and boring. We had far worst forms of censorship and propaganda, paranoia about being caught with doublethink by nosy neighbors was at al times high, yet everything looked normal,…

> The far more aggravating thing is that we tolerate China, choose to do business with Chinese companies and buy Chinese products. A trade embargo (aka cold war) would be a lot worse for everyone involved.. Leads to arms race and threats of war, even less freedom and more injustice for the people (eg North Korea). > we are trading our values, for which people freaking died to win, for short term convenience .. Yeah,…

“Older men declare war. But it is youth that must fight and die.”

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#193

Post by flatM »

criley2 wrote: post #187
flatM wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know communism left a big scar on you, which is totally understandable. The Romanian Communist government was a puppet one imposed by Stalin's Red Army, which has no legitimacy anyway. That is not the case for China. The Chinese Communist Party has led the Chinese people to resist the Japanese invaders in World War II for eight years, which gave them the legitimacy back then. The economical progress they led in Chi…

>Hundreds of millions of Chinese peasants got out of poverty and started enjoy more freedom in education, living, migration and social upwardness. On that fact alone, China should be praised instead of being scolded on. In the west you'll find it common to think that Chinese Communism caused the famines and decades of failure and it was their integration of Western Capitalism and reduction of communism that led to th…

Appreciated for your comments. Though statistically that is not very convincing: the ingredients of capitalism, i.e., market economy and democracy would lead to prosperity. We have more than two hundreds of countries on this globe, the most advanced ones are still the powers from the colonization era. In my humble opinion, those factors seem to be more of correlation than causation.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#194

Post by pjc50 »

worldvoyageur wrote: post #172
justsaysmthng wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The far more aggravating thing is that we tolerate China, choose to do business with Chinese companies and buy Chinese products. A trade embargo (aka cold war) would be a lot worse for everyone involved.. Leads to arms race and threats of war, even less freedom and more injustice for the people (eg North Korea). > we are trading our values, for which people freaking died to win, for short term convenience .. Yeah,…

While I agree that it isn't a good idea to have a trade embargo of China because we don't like how they run their country, I will quibble with the idea that at least my grandfathers and great uncles didn't know what they chose to fight and, if necessary, die for. " we in this island and in the British Empire will never lose our sense of comradeship with the French people. If we are now called upon to endure what they…

If you're going to cite WW2, remember that we were on the same side as China at the time. Well, part of China.

The surrounding point in this discussion is that if we're going to talk up the values of freedom and democracy we have to live them as well. That would include the US giving up its little gulag in Guantanamo and applying the rule of law there as well, among many other things.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#195

Post by digi_owl »

chrischen wrote: post #74
argonaut wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US media as a whole may not be asking critical questions, but that's not the point of free press. The fact is that the US media is free to ask critical questions, and therefore some , though not all, of the media ask critical questions. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Free to still allows another way to allow the powerful to control and manipulate. In order to truly be a free system the system has to be fair as well, which means more income equality in addition to a free press system. If money controls the "free" press and money distribution is heavily skewed, then it's not really a free press. This is how the US system works.

Bingo. I keep seeing the US chatter being about boo scary government, but then turn right round and supplicate themselves to the big US brands as some kind of deities of freedom.

fuck that shit. Every large org is a problem, as it will develop a internal culture and world view.

when you have corporations existing in the world that has bigger revenue streams than nations, it should bring pause for thought.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#196

Post by toss1 »

Hondor wrote: post #150
bad_user wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we have the same definition for freedom. Here's one freedom that we do have: I have the freedom to denounce China's attitude towards censorship and you're free to counteract with other arguments, leading us to dialog, on a public forum. And on people dying, that's just another way of saying that great sacrifice has been made for us to enjoy the lifestyle and freedoms that we do have, so we can't trade t…

Just because people died, doesn't mean we have to honor them and keep hold of what they caused. That's the logic of Christianity. Most soldiers don't really die for any noble purpose, they just fight other soldiers and eventually somebody wins. Nobody knows if the winner will end up good or bad, free or oppressive. It doesn't matter if people got themselves killed because they happened to choose the winning side in a…

Wow, you really think that Roosevelt and Churchill and the societies and they lead were equivalent to those of Hitler, Stalin and Mao? That our democracy, as flawed as it is, is not better than China's one-party, censorship, mobile execution vans? Why have you not moved there yet?

Yes, there are are sometimes, even many senseless wars, but that does not mean that all are so. And it certainly does not mean that people who volunteered to fight that war, and those who paid the ultimate price and died in it, don't deserve some honor (and no, honoring them does not mean that we cannot question or adjust belief structures later).

The ignorance expressed in your statement is so profound that it is truly frightening, and if many hold it, then our society will not last.

Seriously, please learn some actual history (or at least don't spout the ignorance). Or if you don't want to learn history, just examine some current societies that don't have the trust and stability in which you were obviously raised and take for granted.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#197

Post by athenot »

zhte415 wrote: post #85
thaumasiotes wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a much bigger thing (Golden Shield) that involves submitting photocopies of IDs to get a mobile phone SIM I can assure you this is not current Chinese policy.

>> a much bigger thing (Golden Shield) that involves submitting photocopies of IDs to get a mobile phone SIM > I can assure you this is not current Chinese policy. It is the law: to get a SIM card, must submit ID card scan or passport scan.

In the US, you don't need to give you passport/ID but a SSN is necessary if you want to finance it—which most people do. And that is the de-facto national identification number.

So while there are ways around it, most people are led to give that info up voluntarily.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#198

Post by Artistry121 »

bad_user wrote: post #67

Of course it does. I wouldn't bet that it will last though. I often tell people how I was born under communism and that what happened before 1989 in Romania and maybe in other Easter European countries makes the 1984 novel seem unrealistic and boring. We had far worst forms of censorship and propaganda, paranoia about being caught with doublethink by nosy neighbors was at al times high, yet everything looked normal,…

In my time in Saudi Arabia it seemed like propaganda worked well and people were generally happy - even those who were poorer - and saw western society as hyper competitive and immoral. (They were very kind to us Westerners, however)

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#199

Post by kristopolous »

xixi77 wrote: post #191
kristopolous wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Human rights are rights for humans - not just a luxury of those with free time and money. If people can be coerced to waiving their rights, then the mechanism of oppression changes - not the oppression itself. Second, boycotting isn't as effective as demands. When consumer bases set labor, environmental and other standards on imports, historically speaking, compliance follows. Lastly, I'd welcome lots of immigrants.…

I am not sure why you are conflating labor & environmental laws and human rights.

Because I think their the same thing and you do not - and that's a fascinating thing.

It's an interesting discussion about taxonomy, membership, identification, and language.

Broadly speaking if we are to define "human rights" as a "floor" of respectability that should be respected - different political leanings (e.g., neoliberalism, collectivist anarchism, libertarianism etc) paint their picture differently while at the first blush level, are all advocating for the same principles.

When rights becomes a question of membership and dynamics, the linear two-dimensional political narrative of left-right break down into a multi-dimensional set-membership identity.

I'd love to go into more details with you about it if you'd like to have an ongoing intellectual discussion.

You can hit me up on google chat at my username @ gmail or just email me if you want.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#200

Post by worldvoyageur »

pjc50 wrote: post #194
worldvoyageur wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that it isn't a good idea to have a trade embargo of China because we don't like how they run their country, I will quibble with the idea that at least my grandfathers and great uncles didn't know what they chose to fight and, if necessary, die for. " we in this island and in the British Empire will never lose our sense of comradeship with the French people. If we are now called upon to endure what they…

If you're going to cite WW2, remember that we were on the same side as China at the time. Well, part of China. The surrounding point in this discussion is that if we're going to talk up the values of freedom and democracy we have to live them as well. That would include the US giving up its little gulag in Guantanamo and applying the rule of law there as well, among many other things.

We weren't exactly paragons of virtue in WWII. Women, people of colour, LGBT - if you were any of those, your freedoms were a pale reflection of those enjoyed by the broader society. However, as is now clear, the basic values of human dignity and our shared humanity allowed for processes that made things better for those, and other, communities. We have a way to go yet, but we are making progress.

The issue is not to let perfect become the enemy of better. Just because we fall short of an ideal of freedom does not mean we are therefore not in a free society. Just because our society in the WWII era was not as free as our own, does not mean it wasn't dramatically freer than the alternatives.

Even Churchill's promise to fight until all Europe was free was only half kept, for half of Europe fell behind an iron curtain until nearly fifty years after WWII. It was the right decision not to continue to war to free the other half of Europe. Time and exposure to another way to organize society did the job, without millions more dead or nuclear weapons.

It will be the same with China, with Cuba and even with North Korea. All we have to do is stand fast with our freedoms, and advance them where we can. Time and exposure will do the rest.

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