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Hiroshima (1946)

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Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#121

Post by Cogito »

vacri wrote: post #81
rangibaby wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like Japan would be the first country to selectively remember history to make itself look good. I doubt they teach much about Dresden in the UK, or the extermination of Indians in America, or killing literally every Aborigine in Tasmania, or the British forcing the Chinese to buy opium. I went to school in Japan and we didn't learn a sugar-coated version of history. We went to Hiroshima and listened to a tal…

In Australia, the extermination of all Tasmanian aborigines was definitely not taught in highschool, in at least the late 80s when I went. It's not suppressed at all, and plenty of people are aware of it, but it's certainly not taught (or at least, wasn't at that time).

We were taught in high school, ~15 years ago.

I remember wondering how it was actually performed. The story was told as a long line of men walking from on end of the island to the other, killing any aboriginals they found in the process. Tasmania is a very large island, so it seemed like they would need an inordinate number of men to form a line that joined all the way across it, and it would take a very long time to walk the length of it.

Turns out the line was a real thing, called the Black Line [1], and was part of a war called the Black War [2].

Lieutenant-Governor George Arthur decided to remove all Aborigines from the settled areas in order to end the escalating raids upon settlers' huts. He was also concerned about preventing the settlers from taking the law into their own hands and launching revenge attacks. To accomplish this he called upon every able-bodied male colonist, convict or free, to form a human chain that then swept across the settled districts, moving south and east for several weeks in an attempt to corral the Aborigines on the Tasman Peninsula by closing off Eaglehawk Neck (the isthmus connecting the Tasman peninsula to the rest of the island) where Arthur hoped that they could live and maintain their culture and language. This action was only directed against Aborigines of the Big River and Oyster Bay tribes, since the conflict was only with these two tribes.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Line

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_War

Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#122

Post by studentrob »

animeweedlord wrote: post #94
rangibaby wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like Japan would be the first country to selectively remember history to make itself look good. I doubt they teach much about Dresden in the UK, or the extermination of Indians in America, or killing literally every Aborigine in Tasmania, or the British forcing the Chinese to buy opium. I went to school in Japan and we didn't learn a sugar-coated version of history. We went to Hiroshima and listened to a tal…

In American schools an overwhelming amount of time is spent teaching about the sins of our country and other white people. Slavery, Jim Crow laws, the genocide of Native Americans. In a unit on WWII, a week would be spent on the entire war, and the other 3 specifically dedicated to the Holocaust. All in all I'd say we spent over half of our history lessons and a third of our English lessons covering subjects like the…

Agreed. Not sure why you were downvoted. You can find this information in American history textbooks or online.

Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#123

Post by sukilot »

hudibras wrote: post #88
mevile wrote: post #3

> In the street, the first thing he saw was a squad of soldiers who had been burrowing into the hillside opposite, making one of the thousands of dugouts in which the Japanese apparently intended to resist invasion, hill by hill, life for life; the soldiers were coming out of the hole, where they should have been safe, and blood was running from their heads, chests, and backs. They were silent and dazed. However I ma…

If the U.S. had instead somehow parachuted in 200,000 troops to Hiroshima, and then lined up and shot to death 100,000 men, women, children, elderly people, hospital patients, etc., and then burned every building down to the ground, would that be okay? What if by doing so it would end the war? Even if there were going to be many U.S. military casualties (which I doubt, although I know this is debatable), that doesn't…

Why do soldiers deserve to die more than civilians? This is not obvious. Soldiers by and large are not enrolled in war by virtue of free choice among competitive options.

Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#124

Post by dmfdmf »

krapp wrote: post #119
dmfdmf wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mean the same anti-intellectual "right-wing" who thinks the USA should be a faith-based, Christian nation? You have me confused with somebody else and need to consider the fact that both the left and right are wrong.

I do consider them both wrong, but it's nevertheless the case that the bogeymen of "anti-American intellectuals" and Obama's international "apologies" have been props of the right for years. If you don't share their views, maybe don't repeat their arguments or prop up their strawmen.

So if the Right says the sun rises in the East should I repudiate that because they say it too? The American intellectuals hate America and blame America regardless of the context. That is a fact and if you are honest you can discover that fact for your self.

At least we can agree to agree, the Left and Right are a false alternative offered to the American people.

Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#125

Post by studentrob »

GunboatDiplomat wrote: post #77
dkarp wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK, children are definitely taught a history to be proud of in general. Which is the opposite of how history is taught in Germany. But there were a few exceptions. I'm certain we studied the Allied bombing of Dresden and also the massacres that occurred during the Indian independence movement.

It seems only right to me that children be taught pride in their country and their history. There's no need to teach people to cringe at the mention of their nation.

> There's no need to teach people to cringe at the mention of their nation.

Ideally, teachers do not tell kids what to feel. Teachers share facts.

Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#126

Post by travmatt »

krapp wrote: post #114
nihonde wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the record, this doesn't reflect my personal experience in Japan in any way whatsoever. People here are quite well aware of their history, but they don't understand some people's focus on Japan's most recent expansion into China and Korea any more than Americans would understand someone whose sole concern is the eradication of native Americans. This kind of "they're not sorry enough for me" discussion is fruitles…

>Meanwhile, to my point above, America does nothing but wage wars since WW2. Make of that what you will. America is the reason Japan is pacifist. America forced Japan to become pacifist at the point of (quite a few) guns. While it's wonderful that the Japanese people have embraced pacifism culturally, their country's pacifist stance is nonetheless paid for with the obligation of American military violence.

Yea the snideness of that last sentence is a bit much, seeing as its current pacifism was bought with American blood and is secured by the Pax Americana.

Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#127

Post by fatman13gg »

nihonde wrote: post #67
badminton1 wrote: post #59

There are many views on the bombing. The difference is that Americans do not hide it. It's controversial, but people know about it. Same with Germans. People know about how the Germans behaved in WW2, they're not proud about it, it's learned in schools, and they do not hide it. Japan on the other side, actively hide their actions. Japanese schools present a revisionist version of history in which all their horrible a…

For the record, this doesn't reflect my personal experience in Japan in any way whatsoever. People here are quite well aware of their history, but they don't understand some people's focus on Japan's most recent expansion into China and Korea any more than Americans would understand someone whose sole concern is the eradication of native Americans. This kind of "they're not sorry enough for me" discussion is fruitles…

I bet even during WW2 Japanese civilian life was peaceful too, but that doesn't prevent Japan's brutal invasion into other nations. Your personal experience doesn't matter much. Also I don't think Asians reveal their true thoughts to foreigners easily. Besides what matters is Japanese government's take on the history. If Japanese government continue to deny their wrongs during the war and worship their war criminals in shrine, then it is a major problem to the neighbors.

Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#128

Post by krapp »

dmfdmf wrote: post #124
krapp wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do consider them both wrong, but it's nevertheless the case that the bogeymen of "anti-American intellectuals" and Obama's international "apologies" have been props of the right for years. If you don't share their views, maybe don't repeat their arguments or prop up their strawmen.

So if the Right says the sun rises in the East should I repudiate that because they say it too? The American intellectuals hate America and blame America regardless of the context. That is a fact and if you are honest you can discover that fact for your self. At least we can agree to agree, the Left and Right are a false alternative offered to the American people.

I tend to disagree with people who insist on political absolutes. Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#129

Post by doall »

badminton1 wrote: post #113
doall wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that Japanese people are hiding their history. If there are clear evidences that are not flawed and could not be denied, they will not deny, but admit and apologize. For example, there was the famous Korean sexual slavery issue coined by Seiji Yoshida that later he and Asahi Shimbun admitted it was a complete fiction. This revealed that the comfort women issue was not about slavery but prostitution. Why do y…

https://sfi.usc.edu/news/2016/05/11436-japanese-activist-tam... http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21226068

Both articles refer to the same person Tamaki Matsuoka, which is known to be writing books based on logically mistaken interviews. For example, there is a book written by her about 102 "anonymous" ex-soldiers, which she claimed that an 11 years old boy was sent to Nanking as a soldier and raped many women. http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E5%8D%97%E4%BA%AC%E6%88%A6-%E9%96%8...

There were no Japanese soldiers of such a young age.

Re: Hiroshima (1946)

#130

Post by fatman13gg »

rtpg wrote: post #101
badminton1 wrote: post #59

There are many views on the bombing. The difference is that Americans do not hide it. It's controversial, but people know about it. Same with Germans. People know about how the Germans behaved in WW2, they're not proud about it, it's learned in schools, and they do not hide it. Japan on the other side, actively hide their actions. Japanese schools present a revisionist version of history in which all their horrible a…

At least in my experience in the US school system, not a lot talks about American behaviour in WW2 Besides the atom bomb, America basically bombed Japan out of existence. So much so that when the atomic bombs were dropped, it was first assumed to be just another part of that night's bombing runs. No major city was less than 90% destroyed. The issues of Japanese war behaviour comes up very often, and the people have b…

> I would say that Japan has mostly behaved in a similar manner to Germany on the topic

Are you sure on that? I doubt Japan's neighboring nations would agree on that.

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