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Top developers can have a life outside coding

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Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#201

Post by CydeWeys »

ACow_Adonis wrote: post #111
kd5bjo wrote: post #64

A lot of comments are bringing up top athletes as a counterexample, which leads me to believe they don't understand what a high-level training regimen is actually like. I have a relatively unique persepective on this[1], so I thought I'd clarify a few things. Any sport is both mentally and physically exhausting, and it only gets more strenuous as you reach the higher levels. Nobody can keep this up all day, every day…

I'm presuming the difference is that they're kids at a tennis academy. Someone is presumably paying good money for them to be there, and by the time they become professionals, they'll have spent XX years already in training, with someone else presumably working and funding their entire stay/attendance. This then presumes that those kids who do actually make it to the pro circuit aren't then the ones that also have th…

> But no one is paying to have me (or others) learn to code or update my skills.

It's part of your job to be good at what you do. That does involve getting better at programming, updating your skills, keeping abreast of the newest frameworks, and learning new languages. So do it at work. If you're spending every hour of every week at work only working on the exact project in front of you, then you are doing both yourself and your employer a disservice, as you'll have lost the broad picture, and failed to solve many problems the easy way by applying a technique or tool that you could have been aware of, but weren't.

I have solved Project Euler-style questions at work and don't feel the slightest bit guilty about it. It'd be like yelling at a baseball player for practicing his throw.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#202

Post by sokoloff »

maxxxxx wrote: post #138
sokoloff wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IME, outsourcing works because you get (most) management onus placed on the outsourcer. Remote workers with in-office management doesn't feature that.

That is so wrong. Outsourcers require an insane amount of management. Add 12 hours of time difference to the mix and the real fun starts.

They require a ton of product management, of course. They don't require career management (recruiting, hiring, getting them to show up engaged, etc), which is what I meant (but not at all what I said).

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#203

Post by andrewstuart »

ryandrake wrote: post #177
andrewstuart wrote: post #63

I am a recruiter and always ask this question - "Is programming just a job for you to get the bills paid, or do you have a broader interest?" The thing to understand, and what the author of this post has wrong, is that I am not looking to hear about how much TIME a developer spends on programming. I am wanting to hear the STORY of their personal interest. Because the truth is that if software development is a persona…

When I need a plumber, I don't choose one based on his fiery passion for plumbing or because he fixes toilets for free in his spare time.

The analogy runs out of steam pretty quick.

Would you prefer your heart surgeon be one who has a personal interest in the field, or one who after ten years experience felt that they had "learned enough", and that new techniques are just fashions.

Would you prefer your pilot to be one who has a personal interest and really understands the dizzying array of knobs and dials in a cockpit along with understanding how the plane works, all the checklists and procedures and things to do when something goes wrong? Or would you prefer a pilot who felt that they had learned enough and really just want to know enough to get the plane up and down in good weather conditions?

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#204

Post by andrewstuart »

lr4444lr wrote: post #122
andrewstuart wrote: post #63

I am a recruiter and always ask this question - "Is programming just a job for you to get the bills paid, or do you have a broader interest?" The thing to understand, and what the author of this post has wrong, is that I am not looking to hear about how much TIME a developer spends on programming. I am wanting to hear the STORY of their personal interest. Because the truth is that if software development is a persona…

In all fairness, do you ask marketers if they go to networking events to gauge their interest in developing business relationships, or would you count that as a negative, because they're also exposing themselves to being scooped up by your competitors? Do you ask sales people if they have independent side commissions, or would you consider that as cutting into the time spent chasing the deals your company looks after…

Whether an employer should select employees who have a personal interest in their field of work very much depends on what the job is. In some cases a personal interest matters, in some cases it does not. To address your specific scenario, yes I would select marketing people who have some evidence of a personal interest in the field. Marketing is something that is done better when the practitioner thinks about it. For other jobs, personal interest might matter less.

As for software developers, I think most employers do not expect to provide employees with learning time. Larger employers do so, typically through formal training programs.

But if you are a software developer then you need to understand that the industry as a whole expects that you do your own learning. What do I think? I think that is fine, it's no great burden to put a little attention towards software development outside work hours. Doesn't need to be all your available time.

And if you want to be a software developer and resent learning and the time it takes then matey boy, you are in the wrong game.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#205

Post by andrewstuart »

fma wrote: post #121
andrewstuart wrote: post #63

I am a recruiter and always ask this question - "Is programming just a job for you to get the bills paid, or do you have a broader interest?" The thing to understand, and what the author of this post has wrong, is that I am not looking to hear about how much TIME a developer spends on programming. I am wanting to hear the STORY of their personal interest. Because the truth is that if software development is a persona…

Is recruiting just a job for you to get the bills paid, or do you have a broader interests?

I have broader interests.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#206

Post by andrewstuart »

chris_7 wrote: post #130
andrewstuart wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> it's more experience than anything. I don't buy this at all. I have encountered hundreds, perhaps thousands of people who have a very large amount of experience but really can't be said to be any good at their job. Experience is important in making a great programmer but experience does not make a great programmer. And equally I know great programmers who are very experienced who do themselves a great disservice b…

How much of your free time do you spend recruiting?

Not much, but recruiting is not a craft that particularly benefits from being honed with long hours of practice and learning - software development is.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#207

Post by goldenkey »

andrewstuart wrote: post #75
goldenkey wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the same time, programming isn't some noble rigorous science. Computer science is. Most jobs require slapjack programming. Physics, mathematics, chemistry, those jobs could benefit from the employee having an academic interest. But your 10 year+ experienced programmer is not going to benefit from having a "blazing passion." The best they'll do is learn how to use a new framework to make the code less arduous - the…

>> it's more experience than anything. I don't buy this at all. I have encountered hundreds, perhaps thousands of people who have a very large amount of experience but really can't be said to be any good at their job. Experience is important in making a great programmer but experience does not make a great programmer. And equally I know great programmers who are very experienced who do themselves a great disservice b…

Yeah but that's the rub. Having passion for something that isn't even rigorous is a catch 22. Passion for computer science makes a hell of a lot more sense than passion for learning node.js specific APIs like the back of your hand, or whatever flavor tool is hot that year.

I never said there's nothing new under the sun -- I said what is valuable use of time for a junior dev is going to be quite the bore for someone who's been programming for 20 years. Learning new frameworks is somewhat like worshipping an actor because you love the art of cinema. The art is computer science. The paintbrush is engineering. And well, having a passion for one doesn't translate to the other.

I'm not saying that building apps in the newest and greatest frameworks is a waste of time. I'm saying that it takes a naive individual to spend all their time mastering eclectic knowledge rather than formless knowledge.

A smart individual is going to want knowledge that has permanence. As a recruiter you should just go for the sheep, so stick to what you're doing.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#208

Post by goldenkey »

dkopi wrote: post #79
goldenkey wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good job should have you using with for that makes you But you have to look for jobs like that. Jobs that stifle and make you want to code things after work because the work coding environment is so poor, are jobs that I watch out for now. I've been in the situation you describe before. Never again will I do grunt work.

True, but: A. A good job today might not be A good job in another 3 years. Companies aren't quick to dump their existing code just so they can see "we now use and . B. very often expects you to already be experienced with and . By learning at home at your own spare time, you reduce the risk and ramp up time for them, making yourself a more desirable candidate. Try working on make files for a while. You'll miss grunt…

Hah, I didn't mean the "grunt" buildtool for node. I meant dumb trivial repetitive work. I am understanding of legacy code. But at the same time, a good job will understand the pain of inefficiency and dull codebases have on a programmer. And so, someone shouldn't have to _just_ work on that shit all the time, they should be able to mix the burden with other developers in some kind of time ratio.

For B) yes, of course. But once you get your first job, if you keep going and have good workplaces, you shouldn't need to really do much at home.

I'm not trying to knock you, just wanted to put the warning out there for everyone else, because I've shot myself in the foot by joining gigs where a load of shit was dumped on me, and that was the main event. Fuck jobs where the main event is working on something totally unpleasant. No, I'm not a diva and understand that getting paid is to offset that - but still, some workplaces just don't have the understanding that you can't have someone work on sludge 24/7 and not expect them to become bitter.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#209

Post by goldenkey »

andrewstuart wrote: post #87
98129129 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The field isn't rapidly evolving. It's about cramming new pointless APIs and frameworks that are pushed by $company in order to dominate some market segment.

Not evolving? Maybe you're just not learning enough to know what the newest evolutions are. Are you one of the people who see new technology as pointless fashion?

You already told us you were a recruiter. Now you are just making yourself look vindictive and naive. Most new frameworks aren't grand high tech innovation. The most significant thing in web dev in the last 5 years has been creating GUIs with dependency trees or chains to have elegant interfaces that update instantly. There are a ton of different interpretations of this single idea, that's why React, Angular, Ember, Knockout, etc.. all exist. But they individually don't do much more than the others - just differences in heaviness of the framework and how opinionated the defaults / options are.

I wouldn't want you to be my recruiter with the attitude you're showing here in this open forum...

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#210

Post by JamesBarney »

CydeWeys wrote: post #201
ACow_Adonis wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm presuming the difference is that they're kids at a tennis academy. Someone is presumably paying good money for them to be there, and by the time they become professionals, they'll have spent XX years already in training, with someone else presumably working and funding their entire stay/attendance. This then presumes that those kids who do actually make it to the pro circuit aren't then the ones that also have th…

> But no one is paying to have me (or others) learn to code or update my skills. It's part of your job to be good at what you do. That does involve getting better at programming, updating your skills, keeping abreast of the newest frameworks, and learning new languages. So do it at work. If you're spending every hour of every week at work only working on the exact project in front of you, then you are doing both your…

This sounds great but I don't think this is standard for most companies, at least none I've worked at. But I'd love if it were added to the joel list.
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