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Top developers can have a life outside coding

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Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#71

Post by kd5bjo »

rohit89 wrote: post #51
kd5bjo wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you tell someone they can be a "top sports player", if they have a life outside of playing that sport? I've been living at a tennis academy for the past two months, and I've seen firsthand what's expected of the top players. To keep up the necessary training intensity, regular recovery periods away from tennis are built into their schedule. In other words, having a life outside the sport is not only possible,…

They still need to maintain fitness and dietary standards during that time though?

Dietary standards certainly, but fitness during that time is mostly "active recovery," which looks a lot like normal daily activity for the rest of us.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#72

Post by goldenkey »

doorty wrote: post #2

I used to code 24/7, and have "startup" side projects back in college, but 8 years later, and I like having a life outside of work. It also makes me fresher and more motivated when I come to work.

Seems to be a trend that those who have been programming for years actually program more sparingly. I was similar. Programming now is more of a tool than a burning passion. "I am programmer, destroyer of worlds", not "I am programmer, I make random shit all the time, at the cost of being a well rounded person"

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#73

Post by ACow_Adonis »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #27
ACow_Adonis wrote: post #18

You can be hired into a position in an arbitrary hierarchy by having a life outside of coding. You can be popular while having a life outside of coding, or have something you wrote become popular. If that's what you mean by "top developer", then yes, I completely agree. If you mean "the skill of actually programming", then no, that's absurd. Would you tell someone they can be a "top sports player", if they have a lif…

I think people are reading too much into the word "top," which appears nowhere outside the headline. Variants on the phrase "good developer" appear several times, and should perhaps be the focus; "top" may have been a poor choice of words, but I think the intent is clear on a charitable reading.

And since, re-reading my comments doesn't make it as clear as I'd prefer, I'd like to reiterate that this doesn't mean that I think that there's something RIGHT about the expectation that you give your life over to your job or to one particular skill/facet of life. Skills and knowledge aren't even neatly devolved into subject matter areas as though reality and life is just filled with fantastical university faculties that you have to choose between.

I view there being two issues here as separate phenomenon.

You probably won't be a top coder if you're not willing to put more effort in than is available at work or during an 8 hour day: if not just because the modern workplace isn't as a whole very conducive to properly upskilling its workforce, and because there's a whole lot of people out there who are willing to put in more time, money, and effort than just those provided by full time jobs to study/implement their skills.

To be honest, I don't even think most companies even have a place for, or even necessarily WANT top coders.

On the other hand, there's this issue of should companies have an expectation that you're putting in extra work/hours to get a job/get ahead. And that's a big complex issue there that I think has to do more with society/culture/economics than whether you're a top/good coder at all.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#74

Post by whiteshadow »

Ace17 wrote: post #5

Why are we making a special case for software developers, on points we would agree on in other professions? Let's say you're making a movie, and you're hiring your music composer. Both candidates have nearly identical CVs/experience/recommandations. - Candidate 'A' says "I'm only doing this for money, I can't show you any of my work because of NDAs". - Candidate 'B' says "I spend a lot of time composing in my freetim…

I definitely appreciate the intention of the article and hope we can get to a more balanced society where one does not feel so much peer pressure to overachieve at the cost of health/wellbeing, but you make a very fair point: Candidate B, who lives and breaths the craft might have a leg up over the competition, merely because (s)he is so - I am afraid to use this word - passionate, about the occupation in question.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#75

Post by andrewstuart »

goldenkey wrote: post #70
andrewstuart wrote: post #63

I am a recruiter and always ask this question - "Is programming just a job for you to get the bills paid, or do you have a broader interest?" The thing to understand, and what the author of this post has wrong, is that I am not looking to hear about how much TIME a developer spends on programming. I am wanting to hear the STORY of their personal interest. Because the truth is that if software development is a persona…

At the same time, programming isn't some noble rigorous science. Computer science is. Most jobs require slapjack programming. Physics, mathematics, chemistry, those jobs could benefit from the employee having an academic interest. But your 10 year+ experienced programmer is not going to benefit from having a "blazing passion." The best they'll do is learn how to use a new framework to make the code less arduous - the…

>> it's more experience than anything.

I don't buy this at all. I have encountered hundreds, perhaps thousands of people who have a very large amount of experience but really can't be said to be any good at their job. Experience is important in making a great programmer but experience does not make a great programmer.

And equally I know great programmers who are very experienced who do themselves a great disservice by resting on their laurels and not actively pursuing new and fresh interests in the latest software technology.

>> 10 year+ experienced programmer is not going to benefit from having a "blazing passion."

Could not be more wrong on this point. Both highly experienced and juniors all need to work extremely hard to learn - if you want to be extremely good at programming - then you have to be driven by a blazing passion to learn more. The field is rapidly evolving and there are constantly entirely new ways of thinking about programming being developed. If you sit around and think "I've got 10 years experience and there's nothing new under the sun" then you are falling behind.

What is true is that if you have 10 years experience then yes you can probably ride that to the end of your career. You know an adequate amount - enough to bluff your way through most new situations. But if you want to be good - really good - at programming, then 1, 10, 20 or 30 years experience all need to work equally hard at learning and advancing their expertise.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#76

Post by goldenkey »

erikb wrote: post #30

Optimization is possible in most programmers schedule, true. But I still believe it's necessary to spend 30-60 hours a week for 11 months a year to successfully increase your skill. You can't cut off these either, if you want to be good. And your skill is bad at bargaining. You can't tell it "Listen to me skill, I have that other hobby as well. Give me a break!" Skill doesn't work that way.

Programming doesn't change much, frameworks might. Maybe for a college grad, they'll need to do that. But for someone who's been programming since they were young, additional time is not going to do much.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#77

Post by goldenkey »

dkopi wrote: post #19

The main reason I see for "working after work" is actually for "learning after work". While companies might try their best to invest in your professional development - in the end your career is your own responsibility. While you might have to work hard to convince your employers to let you move from part of the stack to another, no one can dictate what your side projects are except yourself. Working after work is wha…

A good job should have you using with for that makes you But you have to look for jobs like that. Jobs that stifle and make you want to code things after work because the work coding environment is so poor, are jobs that I watch out for now. I've been in the situation you describe before. Never again will I do grunt work.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#78

Post by pjc50 »

Ace17 wrote: post #5

Why are we making a special case for software developers, on points we would agree on in other professions? Let's say you're making a movie, and you're hiring your music composer. Both candidates have nearly identical CVs/experience/recommandations. - Candidate 'A' says "I'm only doing this for money, I can't show you any of my work because of NDAs". - Candidate 'B' says "I spend a lot of time composing in my freetim…

I can't show you any of my work because of NDAs

This is not their fault, and a real serious problem with the way developer recruitment works. You can't judge people by their previous work. Whereas in other creative industries everyone has a portfolio or showreel, and you can't get hired without one.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#79

Post by dkopi »

goldenkey wrote: post #77
dkopi wrote: post #19

The main reason I see for "working after work" is actually for "learning after work". While companies might try their best to invest in your professional development - in the end your career is your own responsibility. While you might have to work hard to convince your employers to let you move from part of the stack to another, no one can dictate what your side projects are except yourself. Working after work is wha…

A good job should have you using with for that makes you But you have to look for jobs like that. Jobs that stifle and make you want to code things after work because the work coding environment is so poor, are jobs that I watch out for now. I've been in the situation you describe before. Never again will I do grunt work.

True, but: A. A good job today might not be A good job in another 3 years. Companies aren't quick to dump their existing code just so they can see "we now use and .

B. very often expects you to already be experienced with and . By learning at home at your own spare time, you reduce the risk and ramp up time for them, making yourself a more desirable candidate.

Try working on make files for a while. You'll miss grunt :D

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#80

Post by pjc50 »

I've known quite a few "24/7" programmers, but the smartest I've ever met worked a 4 day week so he could spend more time with his family. He was naturally exceptional though, stood out even in a company filled with people with Cambridge 1st-class degrees.

Again this is making me think I should write my piece on programming while suffering chronic fatigue.

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