The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them • Hacker News Board

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#251

Post by chrismcb » Thu, May 19, 2016, 6:15 AM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #222

Amorymeltzer wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I arrive at the airport in a Lyft. That costs money. Many people take the train or a shuttle or lean on a friend. >I walk up to the security checkpoint checkpoint, where I show the agent my phone. They see my boarding pass with the green checkmark and send me to the empty TSA Pre line. I walk through the metal detector with no adjustments to my attire. You paid for that TSA PreCheck privilege which, while not in the…

> I don't do PreCheck because buying your rights is not something we should be able or have to do. The standard answer is that airplane travel, just as being able to drive on public roads is not a right. Founding fathers apparently failed in their inability to predict we'd be able to amazingly fly through the air one day. So it is not in the Constitution. Therefore please step right into the Rapeyscan machine if you…

Found fathers did a fine job, by not enumerating rights and giving them to the people. But ignore that for the moment. TSA's mandate is "Protect the nation's transportation systems to ensure freedom of movement for people and commerce." TSA's mandate is not limited to the airports. So no, the TSA doesn't believe you have a right to travel unimpeded (even if by walking or riding a horse or a bicycle)

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#252

Post by CheckHook » Thu, May 19, 2016, 6:16 AM UTC

bogomipz wrote: post #220

cloudjacker wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I arrive at the airport in a Lyft. I walk up to the security checkpoint checkpoint, where I show the agent my phone. They see my boarding pass with the green checkmark and send me to the empty TSA Pre line. I walk through the metal detector with no adjustments to my attire. I am at the gate in 5 minutes. I like how trains basically let you show up last minute, and a 3 hour train ride actually means a 3 hour train rid…

Oh wow and each of those things are a premium service that costs money. There are many people who can not afford those, oh but tough crap to them right? How about all the people not in the same income bracket as you? I guess that's their fault in your opinion? That is just elitist.

Premium services often cost a little more money, it's a trade off between money and time. There's nothing stopping people flying if they can't afford the PreCheck, it's just a little longer. Anyway the regular line actually gets shorter when more people use the PreCheck line. Disclaimer: I'm a frequent traveller to the USA but I'm a UK citizen so I cannot use PreCheck.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#253

Post by chrismcb » Thu, May 19, 2016, 6:22 AM UTC

zachlatta wrote: post #40

ndirish1842 wrote: post #7

I wonder how autonomous driving will affect shorter flight commutes. I'll probably never take a car from Philadelphia to LA, but I might prefer to travel by car from Philadelphia to Chicago if I know that I can sleep throughout the car ride (as well as leave whenever is most convenient). When you take into account driving to the airport, checking bags, security, flight delays, baggage claim, and rental cars/driving t…

This is already happening for me when I travel between SF and LA. There's a bunch of bus routes that offer WiFi and operate through the night. Why would I fly when I could get on a bus at midnight and then wake up in LA at 7AM? When flying, sometimes my time spent in security is literally longer than my time in air. And that's not even taking cost into account, you can do $40-50 round trip on Greyhound vs. ~$140 for…

And this is why trains are fairly popular in Europe.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#254

Post by chrismcb » Thu, May 19, 2016, 6:25 AM UTC

rhino369 wrote: post #4

It's easy to say that TSA sucks (it does), but it's hard to propose a workable alternative. Well alternative 1, stop making us take off our shoes and taking out our laptops, its clear from pre-check that it's not really necessary. You need some security. That was clear before 9-11. Airports had security and it was pretty similar to how TSA does it right now. You put your bags on an Xray machine, show your ID, and wal…

Workable alternative: Get rid of TSA, remove the screening process. Done. We will be as safe in the air as we are today. Just as many "terrorists" will get on the plane as get on today. The real problem with TSA is it doesn't actually solve the problem, and it costs money and time. There is no point to it, so get rid of it. The nation will save more money and time, and in the long run more lives.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#255

Post by chrismcb » Thu, May 19, 2016, 6:30 AM UTC

rhino369 wrote: post #32

lisper wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's hard to propose a workable alternative No, actually, it's really easy. > You need some security. That was clear before 9-11. No, it was not clear then, and it is not clear now. There are two salient facts: 1. When tested, the TSA misses 90% or so of the weapons people try to smuggle past them 2. Notwithstanding #1, there have been zero successful terrorist attack on aircraft in the U.S. since 9-11. So it is fa…

I'd be interested to see how they got the 95% failure rate. If the TSA was sneaking in actual bombs that could bring down airplanes, that is a horrific. But if they were testing someone bringing in a nail clipper with a 1 inch blade tucked into it, a plastic gun, a disassembled "bomb" with no explosive residue, etc, then it's not that bad. The fact that there have been attempts to blow up airplanes, and they all invo…

If there was no security, you could walk into a movie theater with a prebuilt bomb and take out a room full of people. Or walk into a school, or walk into a mall, or onto a train, or walk into... well you get the idea. We have a few people do that with weapons, but no prebuilt bombs. Yet I can still walk into a theater with no security, but not board a plane. You are more likely to die in a plane crash due to a maintenance issue than you are to a terrorist bomb.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#256

Post by chrismcb » Thu, May 19, 2016, 6:34 AM UTC

schoen wrote: post #182

avn2109 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All those problems you mention are real, but they're not the main problem. The real problem with the TSA is that it's explicitly unconstitutional, since the 4th amendment explicitly prohibits search and seizure without a warrant. "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon…

> In Davis and its progeny, we have established a general reasonableness test for airport screenings. “An airport screening search is reasonable if: (1) it is no more extensive or intensive than necessary, in light of current technology, to detect weapons or explosives; (2) it is confined in good faith to that purpose; and (3) passengers may avoid the search by electing not to fly.” Torbet , 298 F.3d at 1089 (citatio…

And yet, we can't exactly avoid the search by electing not to fly, as TSA sets up its VIPR teams.

Of course there is the whole issue of whether the line of reasoning is correct.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#257

Post by chrismcb » Thu, May 19, 2016, 6:37 AM UTC

suprgeek wrote: post #83

The article completely misses the point of the TSA. It is not meant to actually make air travel safer. It is there for exactly two reasons: 1) Provide our dear politicians the satisfaction that they "Did something" - Security theater is very useful during election times (Tough on Crime et al) 2)Provide a convenient excuse to expand the govt. ability to dictate yet another aspect of people's normal lives. The govt. no…

Technically the TSA is there to protect the nation's transportation system. I've complained to my representatives and I'm told it is there to make us safe. Sure they may be there to APPEAR to make us safe, and there maybe ulterior motives. But you still have to attack the reason they claim

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#258

Post by chrismcb » Thu, May 19, 2016, 6:41 AM UTC

mwsherman wrote: post #8

In terms of $$, by far the biggest cost is in the wasted time of the millions of people who are subjected to this. It's obviously in the billions.

This is something that I wish more people would understand. Yes TSA costs money, in the billions (but that is peanuts to the government) BUT what does standing in line cost the workforce? A lot of travellers are business travellers and they end up working less on the days they travel because of TSA. Waiting in line has a cost involved, and it is a tremendous one. And what about the cost to the airlines for missed flights?

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#259

Post by chrismcb » Thu, May 19, 2016, 6:43 AM UTC

Mendenhall wrote: post #231

mindslight wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When they then exit the scan they clog up the line by standing right there trying to put everything back on or away Um, excuse me? If I've just been made to disassemble my person and be less secure, you can damn well bet I am going to take my time reassembling myself and making sure I have everything back in its rightful place before proceeding. I'd recommend everybody do the same, even if that means holding your g…

Why would someone bring things they would have to disassemble then reassemble? (medical condition etc aside), when they know they are going to have to fly ? that is inconsiderate IMO To each there own, I just know they are part of the problem.

You are supposed to take your liquids out, your laptop out. Remove your coat, your belt, your shoes. I don't do much of that, yet I still need to collect my belongings and my shoes... You know "reassemble yourself" OP didn't mean take apart and rebuild something

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#260

Post by chrismcb » Thu, May 19, 2016, 6:45 AM UTC

michaelkeenan wrote: post #137

pgrote wrote: post #101

I have long looked for an answer outside of security theater as to why the ban on liquids continues. If anyone has an answer, I'd appreciate hearing it. If you go through a screening line and a liquid is found, the liquid is not tested. It is not handled carefully. It is not thoroughly inspected. It is tossed in the closest garbage can. If the liquid really did pose a danger, wouldn't it be handled more carefully?

I think the (ostensible) reason is similar to this, from the link: > As security expert Bruce Schneier likes to note, such screenings don't have to be perfect; they just have to be good enough to make terrorists change their plans: "No terrorist is going to base his plot on getting a gun through airport security if there's a decent chance of getting caught, because the consequences of getting caught are too great." T…

Except that... it wouldn't really make anyone change their plans... at least not drastically.

How much liquids do you need for a decent explosives? A few liters, 10 liters? 20? So get 10 or 20 of your followers to bring it in.