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The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

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Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#61

Post by acconrad »

mdorazio wrote: post #21

In my opinion, the TSA is basically a very expensive jobs program rather than an actual security organization. This is a big part of why it's going to be hard to get rid of now. According to Wikipedia, the TSA employs over 55,000 people, many of whom would probably have difficulty getting a similar level job if we reverted to a more sane security screening program. Anything that kills thousands of government jobs is…

So is HN turning into a copy/paste of Reddit comment threads now?

https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/comments/4jr1td/the_tsa_...

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#62

Post by Zelphyr »

bluetidepro wrote: post #25
lisper wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's hard to propose a workable alternative No, actually, it's really easy. > You need some security. That was clear before 9-11. No, it was not clear then, and it is not clear now. There are two salient facts: 1. When tested, the TSA misses 90% or so of the weapons people try to smuggle past them 2. Notwithstanding #1, there have been zero successful terrorist attack on aircraft in the U.S. since 9-11. So it is fa…

The problem with the "there have been zero successful terrorist attack on aircraft in the U.S. since 9-11." statement is they use that for their advantage. They say that because of them this is a fact. Ugh.

Except, as Bruce Schneier notes, there were zero 9-11 level attacks on the US prior to 9-11 as well. 9-11 was a statistical fluke.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#63

Post by dragonwriter »

Domenic_S wrote: post #46
dragonwriter wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The TSA is a jobs program with a bit of "throw government contracts to your buddies" mixed in. The TSA is not a jobs program, especially for screening, etc.; those jobs directly replaced private sector jobs. The function was nationalized to move potential liability from the airlines (who contracted with the organizations operating airports, who contracted with private security firms) when they complained about the…

I didn't read the sources in depth, but it looks like the TSA is bigger than the jobs it replaced: > TSA is a major part of DHS, having a workforce of about 62,000 people. TSA became a large organization very quickly after 2001, when it replaced 16,500 private airport screeners with more than 40,000 federal screeners. http://www.downsizinggovernment.org/homeland-security/tsa

Sure, but the increased security requirements and the nationalization in the TSA were two different things that were done together; the former could have been done separately -- permanently increased security requirements were adopted after the hijacking sprees of the 1960s and 1970s, and again -- along with some additional temporary measures that were later lifted -- at the beginning of the 1990s justified by perceived threat from Iraq in the run-up to and during the 1991 Iraq War; those were politically likely to be done after a major successful terrorist attack in the US whether or not the functional was nationalized. And, as the ones which went previously, it would have created more security jobs.

The nationalization of the function in the TSA, though, had nothing to do with jobs, and everything to do with liability.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#64

Post by rhino369 »

jrcii wrote: post #45
rhino369 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be interested to see how they got the 95% failure rate. If the TSA was sneaking in actual bombs that could bring down airplanes, that is a horrific. But if they were testing someone bringing in a nail clipper with a 1 inch blade tucked into it, a plastic gun, a disassembled "bomb" with no explosive residue, etc, then it's not that bad. The fact that there have been attempts to blow up airplanes, and they all invo…

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transportation_Security_Admini... "In July 2007, the Times Union of Albany, New York reported that TSA screeners at Albany International Airport failed multiple covert security tests conducted by the TSA. Among them was a failure to detect a fake bomb."

I wasn't very clear, but what is a fake bomb? some timer taped to a couple circuits like clockboy and with no explosive residue? Or a real bomb with the detonator removed but with a fake detonator?

How realistic the bomb was would radically change the test.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#65

Post by orblivion »

mikeash wrote: post #51
two2two wrote: post #29

TSA is the number one reason why I don't fly and drive instead. From my POV most of the world's industries have progressed positively, but not air travel. I took a train a couple of years ago and it was a beautiful example of old merging with new. Walking through an antique of a train station, iPhone in hand, with my digital ticket ready to board; so easy and pleasant. At that point I realized that air travel is by f…

I like the idea of an "at your own risk" option, but it'll never happen. Since 9/11, a large part of the purpose of airport security is to protect uninvolved people on the ground (or at least in tall buildings), not just passengers. We can certainly debate whether that's necessary or useful (I'd argue that we could do far less than we currently do), but I don't think you'll ever get the public to agree to allowing ai…

To protect those on the ground, part of the option could be acknowledging that the military can take out your plane if it's hijacked.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#66

Post by zipwitch »

Those who say that the TSA is just a jobs program are missing the point. The TSA is a constant reminder of government presence and the security state, it's effectiveness at security or a jobs program is a minor concern compared to its value as a symbol. And of course, its growing, spreading its presence to highways, rail, and other forms of public transit.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#67

Post by navait »

sowbug wrote: post #47
rhino369 wrote: post #4

It's easy to say that TSA sucks (it does), but it's hard to propose a workable alternative. Well alternative 1, stop making us take off our shoes and taking out our laptops, its clear from pre-check that it's not really necessary. You need some security. That was clear before 9-11. Airports had security and it was pretty similar to how TSA does it right now. You put your bags on an Xray machine, show your ID, and wal…

> it's hard to propose a workable alternative How about recognizing that 9/11 was a troll, and we fell for it? The attackers hated the U.S.'s idea of freedom, but they were too powerless to take away our freedom. So they figured out a clever way to make us take away our own freedom ourselves. And yep, we did exactly that. We honor U.S. military who defend our freedom with their lives. They value freedom more than per…

> How about recognizing that 9/11 was a troll, and we fell for it? The attackers hated the U.S.'s idea of freedom, but they were too powerless to take away our freedom. So they figured out a clever way to make us take away our own freedom ourselves. And yep, we did exactly that.

They didn't attack us because they "hate our freedom". Sure, they don't like western lifestyles or values, but that's not the primary reason we're enemies. Al-queda intends to establish a caliphate in the Muslim world, and part of that involves attacking allies of the countries that get in the way of that.

Please stop repeating this falsehood. The TSA is horrible for our freedom and completely ineffective at protecting our safety, but we can't evaluate how to deal with these issues if we subscribe to a flawed model of why terrorism is.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#68

Post by zer00eyz »

capote wrote: post #24
zer00eyz wrote: post #2

In the world we live in there is one surefire way to get rid of the TSA: Stop flying. Sad to say but money is a big motivator, and until the airlines get the message that we don't want to deal with this shit, they aren't going to really push for actual change.

I don't understand your point about money. Airline costs are the lowest they've ever been, and like the other comment said, from business/first revenue airlines are making plenty of money. I also don't really see a reason to stop flying. There's nothing wrong with flying itself--if we simply fix the issue with the TSA it'll be as good as it ever was. And it looks like it finally might change, based on what people are…

Think of it this way:

I pledge not to fly again unless there is a medical or family reason to do so, until the TSA is no longer at the airports I need to use.

No more vacations, no more business trips... that pledge (if made by enough people) would hit airlines in their pocketbook rather quickly, and the TSA would be show the exit.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#69

Post by tptacek »

pc86 wrote: post #60
ssmoot wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife drove up to a private jet this morning. Got on. Took off. No TSA. Holding the "pleebs" to a higher standard than the rich is unconscionable IMO.

1. GA is not limited to the rich. Once you're at about the median US income (or 1/3 of what an SV developer makes, give or take), it is within reach. Slightly more than that and it's starts approaching "affordable," especially as a hobby and not a means of transportation. 2. Money buys you things. By definition people with more money will not be burdened by the same things as those with less.

Private jet travel is probably _not_ within reach for the average SV developer.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#70

Post by mikeash »

orblivion wrote: post #65
mikeash wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the idea of an "at your own risk" option, but it'll never happen. Since 9/11, a large part of the purpose of airport security is to protect uninvolved people on the ground (or at least in tall buildings), not just passengers. We can certainly debate whether that's necessary or useful (I'd argue that we could do far less than we currently do), but I don't think you'll ever get the public to agree to allowing ai…

To protect those on the ground, part of the option could be acknowledging that the military can take out your plane if it's hijacked.

That's far from guaranteed to work. And are you going to be paying for the F-16s on hot standby around the country?
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