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Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco apartments

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21–30 of 155 posts

Re: Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco apartments

#21
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's an interesting comparison. New York City's population density is 56% higher than San Francisco's, and the average height of a building in New York City is only 6.8 stories (in spite of skyscrapers pushing up the mean). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b... http://www.sunilmishra.in/2012/07/05/average-building-height...

Do you happen to know how many units the largest residential building in NYC has? It would be interesting to know the minimum number of buildings needed to cover the 200k unit deficit. [edit] Thanks for all the replies! So it looks like we are talking about a minimum of hundreds of buildings to be torn-down and rebuilt taller. That seems unlikely to happen in SF proper.

"A West 57th Street project by developer TF Cornerstone will be New York City’s largest apartment building when completed, with 1,189 units, according to city records."

http://therealdeal.com/2013/11/12/tf-cornerstones-606-west-5...

Re: Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco apartments

#22
post #20

Building straight into the sky is easy. You'd be amazed at how earthquake-proof skyscrapers are with modern technology. You want a challenge? Build in a city where you're required to post notice any time you cut down a tree on your own property.

i acknowledge that city ordinances can be a huge headache, but consider that trees serve more than just aesthetic purpose. They provide shade, filter particulate matter, and increase air quality for a much larger area than just 'your own property'. This is especially important in the urban core of cities where greenery can be scarce, and mature trees even more so.

If you are worried about the environment there are far more effective approaches we could use, like increasing density to reduce transport emissions.

Re: Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco apartments

#23

Obligatory reminder: If you care about housing in the Bay Area, register to vote now. Scott Wiener is a housing and transportation advocate running for State Senate in this election. http://registertovote.ca.gov/ Show up to Planning Commission and Board of Supervisor meetings. Participate in public comment. We all talk about how NIMBYs rule SF, it's because they show up in full force at these gatherings.

the SF Planning Commission holds their public meetings on Thursdays at Noon. They don't want people to come

Re: Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco apartments

#25
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's an interesting comparison. New York City's population density is 56% higher than San Francisco's, and the average height of a building in New York City is only 6.8 stories (in spite of skyscrapers pushing up the mean). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b... http://www.sunilmishra.in/2012/07/05/average-building-height...

Do you happen to know how many units the largest residential building in NYC has? It would be interesting to know the minimum number of buildings needed to cover the 200k unit deficit. [edit] Thanks for all the replies! So it looks like we are talking about a minimum of hundreds of buildings to be torn-down and rebuilt taller. That seems unlikely to happen in SF proper.

423 Park Avenue is the tallest [1]. 412 637 square feet, containing 104 apartments.

I have no idea what fraction of the floor area is apartments, but if it was all of it, they would average 3968 square feet, which seems huge. If everyone got the same modest but comfortable 820 square feet i have, there could be 503 apartments. At that rate, you'd need about 400 towers to make 200 000 apartments.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/432_Park_Avenue

Re: Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco apartments

#26

Obligatory reminder: If you care about housing in the Bay Area, register to vote now. Scott Wiener is a housing and transportation advocate running for State Senate in this election. http://registertovote.ca.gov/ Show up to Planning Commission and Board of Supervisor meetings. Participate in public comment. We all talk about how NIMBYs rule SF, it's because they show up in full force at these gatherings.

I'm not sure if it's too late but consider registering as a Democrat so you can vote on the DCCC appointments since the DCCC endorsements have a fair amount of sway in elections. See: http://www.sfyimby.org/slate/

Though feel free to vote as you wish.

Re: Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco apartments

#27

Building straight into the sky is easy. You'd be amazed at how earthquake-proof skyscrapers are with modern technology. You want a challenge? Build in a city where you're required to post notice any time you cut down a tree on your own property.

"Building straight into the sky is easy."

Except, it isn't. Construction costs of taller buildings scale non-linearly with every additional story [1]. Building skyscrapers costs upwards of $300 per square foot, whereas single-family homes cost a fifth or a sixth of that. It's so much cheaper to build low-rises, in fact, that virtually no developers will take on a high-rise project unless the property is so expensive that it can command luxury prices. This is more-or-less true for mid-rise projects as well, though at a lower price point (~$200 per square foot).

The conversation about planning and NIMBYs is misguided. As the article concludes, the city is out of land. Any new construction requires buying and knocking down something else, and the choices are all various flavors of "expensive" or "inconvenient".

For example, east of Divisadero, the density of SF is actually pretty high:

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7907112,-122.424097,3a,75y,4...

But west of Divisadero, there are huge sections of the city that look like a suburb:

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7468355,-122.4598049,3a,75y,...

...the problem is, everyone wants to rebuild the dense parts to be skyscrapers (which is very expensive), and transit access to the suburban parts is quite bad. Developers won't build even medium-density projects in western parts of the city, because there's no demand, because there's no transit. Instead, they build higher density in the Mission and SOMA. These buildings will always be expensive, "luxury" units, because at $300+/sq.ft. construction costs the economics don't pencil out otherwise.

[1] https://westnorth.com/2014/03/18/between-rocks-and-a-tall-pl...

Re: Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco apartments

#28
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you happen to know how many units the largest residential building in NYC has? It would be interesting to know the minimum number of buildings needed to cover the 200k unit deficit. [edit] Thanks for all the replies! So it looks like we are talking about a minimum of hundreds of buildings to be torn-down and rebuilt taller. That seems unlikely to happen in SF proper.

"A West 57th Street project by developer TF Cornerstone will be New York City’s largest apartment building when completed, with 1,189 units, according to city records." http://therealdeal.com/2013/11/12/tf-cornerstones-606-west-5...

3333 Broadway has 1200. It's technically five buildings, although they are all connected, so I don't know how they decide that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverside_Park_Community

It's also a monster of a building. I kind of get the NIMBY vibe if it's about that, it's just too big, sucks up all the energy.

There are a few like that this (Galaxy Towers in Guttenberg). They're all old, though, they don't build new stuff like that.

Re: Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco apartments

#29
post #18
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you happen to know how many units the largest residential building in NYC has? It would be interesting to know the minimum number of buildings needed to cover the 200k unit deficit. [edit] Thanks for all the replies! So it looks like we are talking about a minimum of hundreds of buildings to be torn-down and rebuilt taller. That seems unlikely to happen in SF proper.

Interesting idea. It looks like the largest in terms of number of units built in 2014-2015 in NYC was 815 units, so you would need 246 of them to get to 200000+ units. http://therealdeal.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/NYC-Condo-...

That 815 units was a proposal, not something that's actually been built. It appears the company intending to build it has since cut the proposed size to 646 units, and that's big even for NYC - the biggest on that list that's actually being constructed is 246 units and the sizes drop rapidly from there. So you'd be looking at a thousand or so NYC-sized buildings, in an area probably considerably less suited to them than NYC. (Oh, and the estimates I can find claim that apartments in that building are selling for about $2,000 per square foot. I think that's expensive even compared to SF prices. What's more, anyone who complains that SF housing development is too slow needs to realise that 246-unit building is part of a construction project originally proposed in the late 80s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverside_South )

Re: Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco apartments

#30
post #6

> It will be very hard. If the (first) model is correct, it would take a 53% increase in the housing supply (200,000 new units), Doesn't seem that hard in a city full of three-story housing.

I'm thinking the same thing. Is it physical limitations of building (such as earthquake proofing) that makes it difficult? Or is it the suffocating amount of bureaucratic red tape imposed by short-sighted interest groups?

Definitely red tape.

I'm doing an expansion on my house in SF. 1 year in already, and at least another year to go before we get permits, if we even wind up getting them.

It will probably cost over $10,000 just in planning review / permitting costs when it's all done. That does not include the added time architectural costs of changing the plans as demanded by the various planning departments.

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