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The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

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Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#41

Post by astine »

pw0ncakes wrote: post #22
byrneseyeview wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that? Would you refuse to date a Jewish woman who had signed up on Jdate? (Assume you met her outside of Jdate.)

I'm not Jewish, so her willingness to date me would indicate that she's fairly open-minded. However, I think it's different when it's a "white people only" site because "white" isn't really an ethnicity or a single culture, so a person who would sign up for such a site is indicating an interest in skin color/race on its own, which is a bit crass. I don't have a problem with someone who is Jewish who wants to date onl…

Just because they are on a white people only site doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't open minded. I might, but it could just as well be that they are attempting to broaden their exposure simply by visiting more sites. It's possible that 'whites only' dating site would attract a wealthier demographic, which would make it an attractive place to look for a partner even if one wasn't especially racist..

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#42

Post by jrockway »

pw0ncakes wrote: post #8
jrockway wrote: post #5

This isn't explicit anywhere, but OkCupid is all about subgroups. For many people, there is an equal number of guys and girls in each sub-group, so message response rates are consistent and people are generally happy. It seems like, for black girls, that there is not an equal subgroup; there aren't enough guys that find them interesting for all of them. So the girls desperately respond to every message, and the guys…

I'm sure you don't mean to do so, but you shouldn't compare black women to "u r so hawt" guys. Very different categories, and very different dating problems. The moron can stop being a moron and learn how to write decent messages. In addition, his disadvantage is a shortcoming that sends a strong signal about his worthiness for a relationship. The black woman's disadvantage comes from her being black, which will neve…

I'm sure you don't mean to do so, but you shouldn't compare black women to "u r so hawt" guys. Very different categories, and very different dating problems.

The only problem / category I am discussing is "doesn't get what they want out of OKCupid". You could argue that the "u r so hawt" guys don't deserve to get anything out of OKCupid, and I would agree with you. But I am looking at it from their perspective, rather than from the perspective of an unbiased observer. And the reality is that they are probably sad because they are rejected so frequently.

I know a couple of beautiful, smart, incredible black women in their mid-20s who haven't even kissed a guy, much less been in a relationship.

I know a lot of people, male and female, like this. There are a lot of people that aren't in relationships, despite what TV tells you. And, even if the odds are totally in your favor, you still have to take a lot of rejection to get anything out of online dating. The reply rate is like 1-in-5 even for white/white with a 95% match percentage. It's not easy for anyone.

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#43

Post by jmillikin »

nkurz wrote: post #28
pw0ncakes wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not Jewish, so her willingness to date me would indicate that she's fairly open-minded. However, I think it's different when it's a "white people only" site because "white" isn't really an ethnicity or a single culture, so a person who would sign up for such a site is indicating an interest in skin color/race on its own, which is a bit crass. I don't have a problem with someone who is Jewish who wants to date onl…

Since we're vaguely on the topic of 'identity', and hopefully deeply enough in a thread not to be in anyone else's way, I'll toss in an offtopic reaction to 'pw0ncakes'. In this thread and others, your comments are solid and intelligent. I want to vote them up. But your username throws me: it's probably intended as parody, but for me it still signifies irreverent 'script-kiddie', whether ironic or not. So while you'r…

If you're interested, I've written a Greasemonkey script at http://userscripts.org/scripts/review/67722 > to remove usernames. I find they add unnecessary sources of potential bias to what are otherwise relatively anonymous comments.

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#44

Post by jrockway »

petercooper wrote: post #27
henrikschroder wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should it be hideous? Let me try an analogy. Discrimination based on sexual orientation is illegal in a lot of places, and seen as equally bad as discrimination based on race. But there are plenty of dating sites that are exclusively targeted to gay men or lesbian women. If you think that race segregating dating sites are bad, then what are dating sites that segregate on sexual orientation? Are they also bad? But…

First, if race-specific dating sites aren't offensive to you (and to me, they ARE) then why not race-specific bars? Or race-specific public transport? But there are plenty of dating sites that are exclusively targeted to gay men or lesbian women. If you think that race segregating dating sites are bad, then what are dating sites that segregate on sexual orientation? Are they also bad? No, because dating is entirely a…

First, if race-specific dating sites aren't offensive to you (and to me, they ARE) then why not race-specific bars? Or race-specific public transport?

Because wanting to fuck someone is different than being willing to share a bus with them. Relationships are the deepest and most personal human activity, and that activity is vastly different from public infrastructure (public transit, stores, bars, etc.)

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#45

Post by petercooper »

pw0ncakes wrote: post #22
byrneseyeview wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that? Would you refuse to date a Jewish woman who had signed up on Jdate? (Assume you met her outside of Jdate.)

I'm not Jewish, so her willingness to date me would indicate that she's fairly open-minded. However, I think it's different when it's a "white people only" site because "white" isn't really an ethnicity or a single culture, so a person who would sign up for such a site is indicating an interest in skin color/race on its own, which is a bit crass. I don't have a problem with someone who is Jewish who wants to date onl…

because "white" isn't really an ethnicity or a single culture

I know you're focusing on the "Jewish" route, but neither is "black" by that benchmark. Some guy from the middle of the Sudan shares as little (or less) cultural or ethnic heritage with a black guy of Jamaican descent living in Los Angeles.. as an average white Russian does with an average white American.

"Black" means as many things as "white" does. "Jewish" does too, though not to quite as wide a gamut (but compare a black Ethiopian Jew to a Zionist from the Jewish Autonomous Oblast - the shared "culture" or "ethnicity" there is stretched almost to breaking point away from religion).

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#46

Post by scott_s »

danieldon wrote: post #40
scott_s wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The burden of proof generally relies on people making the unusual claim.

How is it at all unusual? The OKCupid data reflects census data on interracial marriage pairings, which shows low numbers of marriages between black women and men of other races ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage_in_the_Uni... ). If the OKCupid data showed that black women were both responsible for and recipients of the highest reply rates, that would be unusual.

It's unusual in the sense that it's new. OKCupid has data. If they want to draw general conclusions from that data, then it's their obligation to convince us that it's valid to generalize.

However, if I remember OKCupid's posts correctly, they explicitly pointed out that they weren't trying to generalize, and acknowledged that all of their conclusions applied only to the users of their site. I think it's everyone else who've tried to generalize their conclusions.

The author of the article from this thread is actually practicing skepticism. He is skeptical of the general conclusions drawn from the data set, and he proposes an alternate, simpler theory - selection bias - that would explain the behavior seen.

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#47

Post by yummyfajitas »

jorgeortiz85 wrote: post #39
yummyfajitas wrote: post #23

There is another explanation of OkCupid's conclusions which is not discussed in that blog. The author of the blog even censored a comment pointing this fact out. 39% of black women are obese, compared to 23% of white women. Men prefer to date non-obese women. http://minorityhealth.hhs.gov/templates/content.aspx?ID=6456

The OkCupid blog post claims they were careful to control for attractiveness: We were careful to preselect our data pool so that physical attractiveness (as measured by our site picture-rating utility) was roughly even across all the race/gender slices. http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/2009/10/05/your-race-affec... So even though guys were rating these black women to be as "attractive" as the non-black women in the…

I stand corrected. Apparently OkCupid does a good job with their numbers.

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#48

Post by danieldon »

scott_s wrote: post #46
danieldon wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it at all unusual? The OKCupid data reflects census data on interracial marriage pairings, which shows low numbers of marriages between black women and men of other races ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage_in_the_Uni... ). If the OKCupid data showed that black women were both responsible for and recipients of the highest reply rates, that would be unusual.

It's unusual in the sense that it's new. OKCupid has data. If they want to draw general conclusions from that data, then it's their obligation to convince us that it's valid to generalize. However, if I remember OKCupid's posts correctly, they explicitly pointed out that they weren't trying to generalize, and acknowledged that all of their conclusions applied only to the users of their site. I think it's everyone els…

    The author of the article from this thread is actually practicing skepticism
No, he's making unsupported, assertive claims, premised on the anecdote that "any black person will tell you, when black folks date online they don't go to OKcupid."

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#49

Post by chrischen »

byrneseyeview wrote: post #26
aristoxenus wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it takes a certain lack of humanity to use the word "hideous" to describe anybody's born appearance.

Is that because it's not nice, or it's not accurate?

Because it's subjective, to a large degree, and to use it is to condemn. To condemn them with any certainty is to assert your righteousness.

Re: The Black Damsel In Dating Distress: A Response to OkCupid's Conclusions

#50

Post by danieldon »

astine wrote: post #35
danieldon wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of data do you absolutely need...? The kind of data that demonstrates that the OKCupid data doesn't reflect broader dating patterns.

I think that anyone who wants to use OkCupid's data as an example of the dating market as a whole, needs to show that OKCupid is representative of the dating market as a whole, not the other way around.

I think that anyone who speculates and makes unsubstantiated claims about the dating market as a whole needs to show that their speculation and claims are representative of the dating market as a whole, or really representative of anything at all.

My statement was broader than intended. Obviously OKCupid's data is not necessarily reflective of all dating sites or interracial dating patterns overall, but Ta-Nehisi Coates is only presenting a hypothesis and some speculative claims, not data, and his speculation shouldn't be treated as anything more until someone presents data that supports it.

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