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A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

thetimes.co.uk

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Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#41

Post by Arnt »

equalsnil wrote: post #23

Would South Africa be a better place if it had become a Russian-influenced Communist country? If Mandela was a secret operative for the communists in South Africa, as the local communist party claimed when he died, and as this former CIA operative has claimed, then he had to have known he was playing a tricky game. Ending apartheid, creating a communist paradise, pick one. [Edit] I know I'm being downvoted, but I als…

Mandela would've turned South Africa into a Russian-influenced Communist country in much the same way that Walter Ulbricht turned East Germany into a West Germany-influenced market economy.

Ulbricht borrowed money on easy terms in return for West German political influence. Lots of money, not so much influence.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#42

Post by benevol »

nxzero wrote: post #11
cm3 wrote: post #5

The CIA is the reason for most of the unstable regions and it's hard to understand how after messing with other places and making it worse for everybody but weapons manufacturers, they're still doing the same thing over and over. Previously it was the fight against Communism, now Islam, I wonder what it will be in 2020. Middle-east, Asia, South America, all are right to be very angry with the CIA, but turn it into a…

Often wondered what the world would be like if there was an intelligence group that only did good.

If we extrapolate, humans will sooner or later create "true AI".

Such an AI system can break free from our control (it will end up manipulating us in the physical space), it should become wiser than humanity as a collective (because it will evolve much faster then us). And in this case, we'd end up having such "an intelligence group that only did good".

The problem lies in how we manage to bridge the period between now and "then", because it will be a highly volatile situation, with a very high probability for our extinction.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#43

Post by blfr »

cstross wrote: post #24
sbarre wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the United States of America didn't lose any wars, and winners make policy.

That explains why the Republic of South Vietnam is doing so well these days, and why Iraq and Afghanistan are beacons of hope and democracy in the middle east. (The USA does lose wars; it's just career suicide for a politician -- and deeply unpopular for a media channel -- to admit it. And nobody has actually threatened to invade the CONUS since 1941, so the cost of losing a war is much lower than for most other nati…

It's pretty clear what he meant: the US never had to surrender like Germany or Japan, or even defend on their own soil, so they can shield their operatives indefinitely.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#44

Post by tremon »

equalsnil wrote: post #23

Would South Africa be a better place if it had become a Russian-influenced Communist country? If Mandela was a secret operative for the communists in South Africa, as the local communist party claimed when he died, and as this former CIA operative has claimed, then he had to have known he was playing a tricky game. Ending apartheid, creating a communist paradise, pick one. [Edit] I know I'm being downvoted, but I als…

you can thank McCarthy for the downvotes.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#45

Post by sangnoir »

equalsnil wrote: post #23

Would South Africa be a better place if it had become a Russian-influenced Communist country? If Mandela was a secret operative for the communists in South Africa, as the local communist party claimed when he died, and as this former CIA operative has claimed, then he had to have known he was playing a tricky game. Ending apartheid, creating a communist paradise, pick one. [Edit] I know I'm being downvoted, but I als…

Why are you talking in hypotheticals when Mandela became president of South Africa in 1994?

Your false dichotomy is empirically false because apartheid was ended without creating a 'communist paradise'.

Even if we were to accept your limited worldview/binary choices; it is not clear how a state with codified racism (apartheid) is superior to an egalitarian communist one.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#46

Post by rfrey »

tempodox wrote: post #9

> ...the world’s most dangerous communist... How fads change. Had it happened today, they would have called him a terrorist. Sadly, it's not really news that the U.S. only pay lip service to Democracy. After all, the dictator of our choice can guarantee our economic and military interests much better than any democratic regime.

I remember that a constant topic of debate in the 80's in my Lefty Pinko Activist groups was the refusal of Amnesty International to advocate for Mandela. It was because he advocated violence.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#47

Post by [deleted] »

blfr wrote: post #43
cstross wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That explains why the Republic of South Vietnam is doing so well these days, and why Iraq and Afghanistan are beacons of hope and democracy in the middle east. (The USA does lose wars; it's just career suicide for a politician -- and deeply unpopular for a media channel -- to admit it. And nobody has actually threatened to invade the CONUS since 1941, so the cost of losing a war is much lower than for most other nati…

It's pretty clear what he meant: the US never had to surrender like Germany or Japan, or even defend on their own soil, so they can shield their operatives indefinitely.

[deleted]

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#49

Post by sangnoir »

Havoc wrote: post #33
equalsnil wrote: post #23

Would South Africa be a better place if it had become a Russian-influenced Communist country? If Mandela was a secret operative for the communists in South Africa, as the local communist party claimed when he died, and as this former CIA operative has claimed, then he had to have known he was playing a tricky game. Ending apartheid, creating a communist paradise, pick one. [Edit] I know I'm being downvoted, but I als…

>If Mandela was a secret operative for the communists in South Africa Pretty much all of the ANC has/had strong communist links since thats who sheltered those that went into exile. So I wouldn't say "secret operative"...

If you were an ANC strategist at the time (cold war), who would you have aligned yourself with for financial & military support?

Remember, you are a "3rd world" movement, European colonialism is still in full swing (though wavering), you are probably the wrong color and civil rights aren't a thing yet -Jim Crow laws are still being enforced in the US, and the apartheid government you are fighting have been aligned with the Allied powers (the west) since WW II.

Edit: corrected 'Allied' powers: had named them Axis by mistake

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#50

Post by qznc »

Havoc wrote: post #31
tempodox wrote: post #9

> ...the world’s most dangerous communist... How fads change. Had it happened today, they would have called him a terrorist. Sadly, it's not really news that the U.S. only pay lip service to Democracy. After all, the dictator of our choice can guarantee our economic and military interests much better than any democratic regime.

>they would have called him a terrorist. Actually the ANC (or at least a splinter group) did bomb civilian locations in a terror campaign so yes it was considered a terrorist organisation. Now they're considered the liberators/bringers of democracy. Hows that for a pivot hn?

If terrorists win they are not called terrorists anymore. Compare the Boston Tea Party which started the war of independence.
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