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Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

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Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#581

Post by tptacek »

dragonwriter wrote: post #572
tptacek wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you believe this, it's not safe to fire anyone --- all of them could "file costly wrongful termination suits". In fact, "wrongful termination" doesn't mean "terminated unfairly". It means "terminated unlawfully ". In the US, unlawful termination occurs: * When it contravenes an explicit clause in your employment contract or an implied contract you accidentally created. * When it has the effect of discriminating ag…

> As an attempt to bulletproof firings that target ostensible members of a protected class This is phrased poorly -- everyone is a member of (several) protected class, since a protected class is an axis on which discrimination is illegal. Race is a protected class (not just particular races), color is a protected class (not just particular colors, and distinctly from race), religion is a protected class, sex (not jus…

Sure. You're right, this isn't worded well (I wrote it in several successive edits). I'd write it differently now:

PIPs have just two purposes:

1. As a CYA mechanism to avoid discrimination, harassment, and retaliation claims.

2. As a socially acceptable means of informing employees that they should begin a new job search.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#582

Post by tptacek »

balls187 wrote: post #567
illumin8 wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many large companies use PIPs as a default for poor performance prior to firing. The frustrating thing about it is that a poor performing worker, who shows up at the office, but does zero work, is likely to bounce around in the PIP system for 12-18 months, collecting a paycheck, before you can terminate them. If they're smart enough to do the bare minimum to satisfy the PIP, they can go back to doing nothing once the…

> Something egregious like this (sexual harassment) definitely warrants an immediate termination. Why should one incident that occurred outside of work, warrant termination? Are our private lives subject to the scrutiny of our employer? Is it sexual harassment if the victim doesn't actually feel harassed?

Yes, if your private life involves making unwelcome and rude sexual advances to other employees, it warrants immediate termination. Employees who do this present a grave risk to the company in terms of legal expense, PR, and recruiting.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#583

Post by Chris2048 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #62
boosting7669 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the OP hasn't shared all information but if asking someone out and/or complimenting someone's appearance (albeit crudely) is now the equivalent of sexual harassment then be prepared for a rapid decline in population since no one will want to be the first one to make a move.

Continuing sexual advances in a work context after being explicitly rebuffed is textbook harassment. This is, perhaps, nearly the most minor incident possible of that basic pattern, but it also pretty clearly fits it.

Did that happen?

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#584

Post by balls187 »

tptacek wrote: post #582
balls187 wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Something egregious like this (sexual harassment) definitely warrants an immediate termination. Why should one incident that occurred outside of work, warrant termination? Are our private lives subject to the scrutiny of our employer? Is it sexual harassment if the victim doesn't actually feel harassed?

Yes, if your private life involves making unwelcome and rude sexual advances to other employees, it warrants immediate termination. Employees who do this present a grave risk to the company in terms of legal expense, PR, and recruiting.

Generally, I agree with what your statement. If you sexually harass others in your personal life, and your employer finds out about it, it's prudent to manage them out.

In this case, the employee handled the unwanted advances herself, and later told the OP about it. It's not clear if the female employee felt that it was "rude sexual advance" since to her it was "no big deal."

From the EEOC:

> Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted).

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#585

Post by ownagefool »

tobz wrote: post #559
ownagefool wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See I think this is a culutre thing, but I imagine it doesn't work for the entire USA but is locked down to the left politically correct spectrum, because to me it's not all that bad a word. Point being, I could quite happily call someone from work a MILF in a semi-serious / semi-jokey way and get away with it. In fact, I've said worse and had success because if the woman likes you, she'll like the fact you said it.…

> had success That's a really gross way of describing your overbearing behavior in a work setting. As if spitting out sexually-charged comments is some sort of win/not-quite-lose scenario. Yeah, let's just keep calling women MILFs, or calling guys DILFs, or whatever the pickup line du jour is, until it "succeeds", and until then, well, just keep trying. That doesn't sound like a creepy, overbearing trait to exhibit a…

There's a difference between me calling you a DILF either in jest, as an actual compliment or because I want to see how you react than repeating it ad nauseam.

Also you seem to be imagining that everyone's doing this during working hours and that there's no context to the comments. If I just walked into work and started yelling such things at people, I imagine folks would quite rightly pause, but the "had success" point was that there is obviously situations where this is appreciated.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#586

Post by salesthrowaway1 »

tptacek wrote: post #283
salesthrowaway1 wrote: post #259

As an experienced biz dev person, I feel like I understand this type of employee and have worked with them many times. Based on the feedback from your female employee, it sounds like her concern is this happening to other people who doesn't "know how to deal with it" and that is why she got you involved. She doesn't seem concerned with short term repercussions, more about this employee's attitude needing adjustment f…

What the victim wants isn't relevant to the decision of how to handle the harasser. The reason the harasser should be fired is that they are creating egregious risk for the company. All that has to change in this story to create a nightmare scenario is for this bizdev person to have harassed someone who was already on a PIP, or who is about to be placed on one, or someone who has a preexisting grievance with the comp…

I think the biggest issue is likely to be a misunderstanding about this person's view of the word "milf". Namely, that this person's view of the world is completely unacceptable and the word should never find its way into a professional setting. It seems like that word in particular has caused so much of the emotional response in this thread. It is OP's gimmick name, it is referenced in nearly every negative comment, and it is the only feedback in many comments.

The point you make about him doing it to someone on a PIP or other situations is a great point, and it really is the core of the issue.

However, I think while this person's behavior is unacceptable, if we remove him calling the co-worker a milf, the entire situation changes. I'm willing to give this person a second chance, and a permanent red-mark on their HR record.

In regards to what the victim wants, I completely agree. My point was just to help ease the founder's guilt in potentially breaking her trust. You can't break her trust if you keep her in the loop and are transparent about the steps you will be taking.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#587

Post by tptacek »

balls187 wrote: post #584
tptacek wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, if your private life involves making unwelcome and rude sexual advances to other employees, it warrants immediate termination. Employees who do this present a grave risk to the company in terms of legal expense, PR, and recruiting.

Generally, I agree with what your statement. If you sexually harass others in your personal life, and your employer finds out about it, it's prudent to manage them out. In this case, the employee handled the unwanted advances herself, and later told the OP about it. It's not clear if the female employee felt that it was "rude sexual advance" since to her it was "no big deal." From the EEOC: > Although the law doesn’t…

It's not about how this employee feels about the advance. It's about how the next one will.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#588

Post by cj »

Personally I would fire him after explaining to the victim that there's zero tolerance for sexual harassment (after consulting our lawyer - have to do these things by the book).

Ultimately it's up to you and how you want to define your company's culture.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#589

Post by wnoise »

illumin8 wrote: post #551
joantune wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and you know why that is? nothing on the OPs post reveals a clear infringement or harassment IMO. MILF is borderline a bad way to talk to someone, yet, everyone here is saying: FIRE HIM or FIRE THEM. It would be harassment if he continued after she said stop, it would be harassment if he groped her, it would be harassment if he talked clearly obscenely about her, MILF is borderline, and yet, everyone is saying, FIRE…

Asking someone on a date that isn't interested in you is harassment. Calling someone a MILF is definitely harassment. Do you seriously think telling someone in a professional setting that they're a mother you'd like to f--- is not harassment? When asking someone on a date that isn't interested in you is? Read your HR policies - if you don't, I suspect you'll be in trouble like this someday, based on your attitude tow…

> Asking someone on a date that isn't interested in you is harassment.

Asking someone on a date when it is apparent that they aren't interested is harassment.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#590

Post by balls187 »

tptacek wrote: post #587
balls187 wrote: post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally, I agree with what your statement. If you sexually harass others in your personal life, and your employer finds out about it, it's prudent to manage them out. In this case, the employee handled the unwanted advances herself, and later told the OP about it. It's not clear if the female employee felt that it was "rude sexual advance" since to her it was "no big deal." From the EEOC: > Although the law doesn’t…

It's not about how this employee feels about the advance. It's about how the next one will.

That's a pretty broad assumption your making.

If there is a next employee who is harassed, he/she can file the complaint, and the company can deal with it then. As it stands, no company policy was violated, and the female employee doesn't think this is an issue.

This is a single incident, that again occurred during the weekend, and over Whatsapp (both parties consenting to share numbers).

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