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Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

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Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#551

Post by illumin8 »

joantune wrote: post #541
Nadya wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is already happening in many professional contexts though - and without Joe ever having to speak up about anything. Male professors avoid being alone with female students. Male colleagues refuse to work with or to a lesser extent, refuse to be friendly on any sort of casual level with female colleagues entirely just because of the small risk that an accusation could cost them their job/career. This fear actively…

and you know why that is? nothing on the OPs post reveals a clear infringement or harassment IMO. MILF is borderline a bad way to talk to someone, yet, everyone here is saying: FIRE HIM or FIRE THEM. It would be harassment if he continued after she said stop, it would be harassment if he groped her, it would be harassment if he talked clearly obscenely about her, MILF is borderline, and yet, everyone is saying, FIRE…

Asking someone on a date that isn't interested in you is harassment. Calling someone a MILF is definitely harassment. Do you seriously think telling someone in a professional setting that they're a mother you'd like to f--- is not harassment? When asking someone on a date that isn't interested in you is?

Read your HR policies - if you don't, I suspect you'll be in trouble like this someday, based on your attitude towards this.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#552

Post by Chris2048 »

tptacek wrote: post #266
rdiddly wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ding ding ding, first cogent, non-hysterical, mature comment on the page! Edit: In the spirit of trying to actually add some worthwhile content in my comment: Harassment sucks, just like not knowing a core skill of one's job, sucks. But demanding perfection in either case is not a reasonable approach. When someone joins, and they don't meet expectations, you have to tell them they didn't meet expectations, show them…

Refusing to tolerate unwelcome, overt, and repeated workplace sexual advances isn't a demand for perfection; it's a demand for a minimal standard of professional conduct. It's right there on the list along with "don't steal, don't try to finagle kickbacks from suppliers, don't physically threaten employees" and so on. There are better places for bizdev and sales people to learn professionalism than in depositions.

The harassment of the magnitude described here is not up there with supplier kickbacks and physical violence, anymore than it is up there with embezzlement!

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#553

Post by illumin8 »

tptacek wrote: post #482
balls187 wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is practically no such thing as wrongful termination in the US. This is true. However, there is nothing also that stops individuals from filing costly "wrongful termination suits" against a company. In my little slice of the managerial world, we spend time with HR to fully document performance lapses, ensuring we have written statements clearly indicating expectations and whether they are met, solely because…

If you believe this, it's not safe to fire anyone --- all of them could "file costly wrongful termination suits". In fact, "wrongful termination" doesn't mean "terminated unfairly". It means "terminated unlawfully ". In the US, unlawful termination occurs: * When it contravenes an explicit clause in your employment contract or an implied contract you accidentally created. * When it has the effect of discriminating ag…

Many large companies use PIPs as a default for poor performance prior to firing. The frustrating thing about it is that a poor performing worker, who shows up at the office, but does zero work, is likely to bounce around in the PIP system for 12-18 months, collecting a paycheck, before you can terminate them. If they're smart enough to do the bare minimum to satisfy the PIP, they can go back to doing nothing once the PIP is over and repeat this cycle for a few years before they eventually get terminated.

The reason large companies do this for everyone is that over 50% of the population is a protected class (female, minority, veteran, etc), and large companies want to reduce all risk as much as possible, so therefore, you get mandatory PIPs.

Something egregious like this (sexual harassment) definitely warrants an immediate termination. Unfortunately, I've worked on teams with members that did zero work and had an 18 month PIP. It kills morale in unique and incredible ways for the rest of the team.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#554

Post by matt4077 »

This is actually a chance to set your startup's atmosphere for years to come – you should actually send the guy a gift basket. (1) Talk to the reporting employee to explain why (2) has to happen. (2) Fire him, for cause, publically, immediately. (3) Deal with any consequences of not talking to a lawyer first.

If you're at the scale where a wrongful termination suit isn't an existential risk to the company, you'll get bonus points if you actually lose in court.

As an employee, I'd work on weekends & nights for a boss who has a well-adjusted moral compass and will sometimes disregard business interests to act on it.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#555

Post by tptacek »

Chris2048 wrote: post #552
tptacek wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Refusing to tolerate unwelcome, overt, and repeated workplace sexual advances isn't a demand for perfection; it's a demand for a minimal standard of professional conduct. It's right there on the list along with "don't steal, don't try to finagle kickbacks from suppliers, don't physically threaten employees" and so on. There are better places for bizdev and sales people to learn professionalism than in depositions.

The harassment of the magnitude described here is not up there with supplier kickbacks and physical violence, anymore than it is up there with embezzlement!

Says you. Actually: the kickbacks are less likely to seriously harm your company.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#556

Post by emodendroket »

Sharlin wrote: post #325
emodendroket wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probationary periods are basically fictional unless you've laid out some formalized termination process.

Perhaps fictional in the US. They are very much legal fact in (most of?) Europe where at-will employment isn't really a thing.

I assumed this story took place in the US, where people talk about "probationary periods" all the time despite basically your entire term of employment being "probationary" in this sense. Yes, if you're in Europe it's a totally different story.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#557

Post by Chris2048 »

tptacek wrote: post #555
Chris2048 wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The harassment of the magnitude described here is not up there with supplier kickbacks and physical violence, anymore than it is up there with embezzlement!

Says you. Actually: the kickbacks are less likely to seriously harm your company.

Money accidentally miscounted at the till, and explicitly stealing money from the till might cause the business an equal loss, but both are not equally as bad.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#558

Post by Chris2048 »

Going to one of the founders over a weekend WA conversation, even bringing evidence, sounds like she's trying to get the guy fired. This isn't something that should be allowed to happen covertly, because it's ripe for abuse.

Other posters mention the phenomenon of avoiding interacting with women at work. The threat of "she secretly went to top brass, and I was fired without defence or cause" is exactly what might justify this.

The trust she placed in you is the trust that you'll keep her name out of this, but if she's getting someone fired, that's not ok without a more objectivity around the details. One side of the story is not objective - even is that one side turns out to be accurate, you can't know this in advance.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#559

Post by tobz »

ownagefool wrote: post #533
cortesoft wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Referring to someone as a MILF at work is inappropriate at work, even if you are trying to 'spark a romance'. You don't get a free pass to try anything once. If you are trying to spark a romance, you have to do it in a professional way that leaves the other person an out before you take it to an inappropriate level.

See I think this is a culutre thing, but I imagine it doesn't work for the entire USA but is locked down to the left politically correct spectrum, because to me it's not all that bad a word. Point being, I could quite happily call someone from work a MILF in a semi-serious / semi-jokey way and get away with it. In fact, I've said worse and had success because if the woman likes you, she'll like the fact you said it.…

> had success

That's a really gross way of describing your overbearing behavior in a work setting. As if spitting out sexually-charged comments is some sort of win/not-quite-lose scenario.

Yeah, let's just keep calling women MILFs, or calling guys DILFs, or whatever the pickup line du jour is, until it "succeeds", and until then, well, just keep trying. That doesn't sound like a creepy, overbearing trait to exhibit at all. /sarcasm

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#560

Post by louduh »

joantune wrote: post #539
nlh wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What often happens is that the person who reports harassment is then punished because people no longer want to talk to her. They keep her out of the loop on casual stuff, but lots of professional discussions happen in casual contexts. Over time, she gets iced out for reporting illegal behavior. I think this really depends on your team dynamic, and I wouldn't necessarily be concerned about this point (as valid as it…

why do you think that it is an inappropriate advance? what is a proper one? I have no info to sustain it being inappropriate other than the OP saying that he was upset by it. And he could be upset by a number of reasons. Inappropriate would be groping, or very obscene talk, and especially those or continue hitting on someone after she said stop. MILF is borderline. OP might be upset for other reasons as well.. OP, ju…

By calling her a MILF he just said he wanted to have sex with her.

That's obscene and thats's harrassment.

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