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Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

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Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#561

Post by specialist »

Mz wrote: post #174

So, I am female. When working at a Fortune 500 company, I once emailed a colleague and copied our two bosses. I advised him to never speak that way to me again. It went to HR. I got interviewed. I assume he got interviewed. He was not fired. He never spoke that way to me again. I eventually reestablished trust with this man and we got on well. I suspect he got sensitivity training. I was not told what went down. It w…

Late to this party, sorry. Just saw your blog post, commenting here.

I agree with you that the female in this story handled the situation optimally. I recently made a sexual harassment claim at a megacorp. It was handled much as you described. I was pleased by the whole process and outcome. Much improved, very different from how these things were handled in the 90s.

I agree with patio11's advice that the founder should lawyer up. Being a startup, they probably don't have mature processes. Lawyer + HR can instruct founder how to handle this situation legally, professionally.

I disagree that the new hire should be summarily fired for a first offense. But as a dude I predict this guy will eventually be fired; it's best to start that documentation now.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#562

Post by louduh »

ownagefool wrote: post #545
nurettin wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dunno, I'd kinda assume people are being reasonable by default. That's how societies are built by the majority so that a minority of cynics can find the luxury to make sexist remarks within that established framework.

Well, no. You're assuming the woman is reasonble by default and thus the man must be at fault. This is actually a sexist point of view.

You forgot "actually" after your "Well"

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#563

Post by namlem »

Mz wrote: post #174

So, I am female. When working at a Fortune 500 company, I once emailed a colleague and copied our two bosses. I advised him to never speak that way to me again. It went to HR. I got interviewed. I assume he got interviewed. He was not fired. He never spoke that way to me again. I eventually reestablished trust with this man and we got on well. I suspect he got sensitivity training. I was not told what went down. It w…

I think if the guy in question had been a long time or otherwise indispensable employee, this would be the right course of action. However, OP said he was just hired. In that case, it's probably easier just to fire him.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#564

Post by logfromblammo »

kelukelugames wrote: post #512
logfromblammo wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't tell whether I am explaining myself poorly or whether you are intentionally misinterpreting. I am not a lawyer, and to my knowledge, neither are you. And that's why I won't go further than this post on this branch of the conversation. As I have noted before, you can apparently post far more often than I can, and I can't keep up with you even when I have any credible knowledge on the topic. I have a somewhat j…

You are arguing with someone whose limited exposure comes from observing secondhand issues. People don't know the difference between what feels right and is legally safe.

Legally safe is to have lots of cash in your war chest, and enough time to be very patient.

The law doesn't need to be on your side if the judge is.

Perhaps I'm only pessimistic because I have been metaphorically kicked in the teeth by too many kinds of grown-up bullies, and have seen too many all-too-familiar stories about it happening to other people like me.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#565

Post by cortesoft »

ownagefool wrote: post #533
cortesoft wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Referring to someone as a MILF at work is inappropriate at work, even if you are trying to 'spark a romance'. You don't get a free pass to try anything once. If you are trying to spark a romance, you have to do it in a professional way that leaves the other person an out before you take it to an inappropriate level.

See I think this is a culutre thing, but I imagine it doesn't work for the entire USA but is locked down to the left politically correct spectrum, because to me it's not all that bad a word. Point being, I could quite happily call someone from work a MILF in a semi-serious / semi-jokey way and get away with it. In fact, I've said worse and had success because if the woman likes you, she'll like the fact you said it.…

If you are friends with your coworker, and you know each other well, then sure, you can get away with calling her a lot of things. I have specific coworkers that I am like this with (in private, away from other coworkers who might not know our relationship)

There is no WAY this would be acceptable until you have established that type of relationship over a long period of time. This guy just started working there, so that is not the case here. The fact that she complained about it means that they don't have that type of relationship, as well.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#566

Post by zepto »

econner wrote: post #495
zepto wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you studied sexism at all? It's significantly more complicated than your simple explanation implies, which is mostly my point. Hint: I don't disagree with that it would be equally inappropriate for a woman to put a man in this position, but that doesn't mean it isn't sexist.

I don't understand why you're calling out "people who think they aren't sexist". Why is that point important? (Besides to belittle me?) I'm not claiming to be free from bias here. Everyone has biases both conscious and unconscious. And can you please explain how it is sexist? (I have not studied sexism..and am curious to learn.) Your hint gives no justification except your assertion again that it is sexist without ex…

I'm not calling anyone out or belittling anyone. I am saying that if you acknowledge that you are sexist (as everyone of both genders is), then a zero tolerance policy doesn't do anything to solve the problem.

If you haven't studied sexism, how do you get to claim that the situation isn't sexist? Therein lies the problem.

For some reason you think it's fine for you to declare things as not sexist despite both your acknowledged bias, and your acknowledged ignorance about what sexism is. Only people with relative social advantage can rely on support when they make pronouncements from bias and ignorance. Marginalized groups have an altogether different experience when they state what is just as obvious to them.

Ask yourself why you haven't had to learn anything about sexism, and who does need to know about it?

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#567

Post by balls187 »

illumin8 wrote: post #553
tptacek wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you believe this, it's not safe to fire anyone --- all of them could "file costly wrongful termination suits". In fact, "wrongful termination" doesn't mean "terminated unfairly". It means "terminated unlawfully ". In the US, unlawful termination occurs: * When it contravenes an explicit clause in your employment contract or an implied contract you accidentally created. * When it has the effect of discriminating ag…

Many large companies use PIPs as a default for poor performance prior to firing. The frustrating thing about it is that a poor performing worker, who shows up at the office, but does zero work, is likely to bounce around in the PIP system for 12-18 months, collecting a paycheck, before you can terminate them. If they're smart enough to do the bare minimum to satisfy the PIP, they can go back to doing nothing once the…

> Something egregious like this (sexual harassment) definitely warrants an immediate termination.

Why should one incident that occurred outside of work, warrant termination?

Are our private lives subject to the scrutiny of our employer?

Is it sexual harassment if the victim doesn't actually feel harassed?

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#568

Post by balls187 »

tptacek wrote: post #490
balls187 wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Employers in the US generally have no [legal] obligation whatsoever to provide "reasonable time to take corrective measures". They do, however, want to CYA. > In fact, "wrongful termination" doesn't mean "terminated unfairly". It means "terminated unlawfully". And "unlawfully" is determined by the US Courts. > If you believe this, it's not safe to fire anyone --- all of them could "file costly wrongful termination…

Can you point to the law you're concerned might be violated in this scenario?

We're assuming the business dev person is not a protected class (basically your run-of-the-mill white bro).

He could be a veteran, or a minority, or disabled.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#569

Post by nurettin »

ownagefool wrote: post #545
nurettin wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dunno, I'd kinda assume people are being reasonable by default. That's how societies are built by the majority so that a minority of cynics can find the luxury to make sexist remarks within that established framework.

Well, no. You're assuming the woman is reasonble by default and thus the man must be at fault. This is actually a sexist point of view.

Except I wouldn't ignore textual evidence "because women can be unreasonable" or "men can be assholes".

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#570

Post by balls187 »

stonecraftwolf wrote: post #549
joantune wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

now you're implicitly calling the guy a rapist?? What happened to the benefit of the doubt

Obviously not, and that is a reading in such bad faith that it veers into trolling. For anyone reading who is not trolling: the point is that like most other people who break the social rules in some way, abusers, harassers, and yes, rapists, are often very good at publicly performing adherence to social norms while deviating from them in private. Nor do they personally identify as abusers, harassers, rapists--even i…

Would you grant us access to all your personal email, social networks, and websearch history so that we may verify that you have not broken any social rules?

That is, most of us, in some way, behave differently in our private lives vs our professional lives.

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