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Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

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Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#541

Post by joantune »

Nadya wrote: post #361
jasonpeacock wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alas, you don't know what will happen until it does happen. It could be as simple as "Wow, Joe reported Bob for sexual harassment, but Bob didn't do anything wrong - I was there. Now I have to be extra-careful around Joe to avoid getting reported myself!" And there you go - Joe is now suffering from "retaliation" and being treated special for speaking up.

That is already happening in many professional contexts though - and without Joe ever having to speak up about anything. Male professors avoid being alone with female students. Male colleagues refuse to work with or to a lesser extent, refuse to be friendly on any sort of casual level with female colleagues entirely just because of the small risk that an accusation could cost them their job/career. This fear actively…

and you know why that is? nothing on the OPs post reveals a clear infringement or harassment IMO.

MILF is borderline a bad way to talk to someone, yet, everyone here is saying: FIRE HIM or FIRE THEM.

It would be harassment if he continued after she said stop, it would be harassment if he groped her, it would be harassment if he talked clearly obscenely about her, MILF is borderline, and yet, everyone is saying, FIRE HIM.

Guys, just give the benefit of the doubt, make it a clear statement that you on the workplace are clearly against any kind of advance that might happen between employees, and that's it.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#542

Post by joantune »

Frozenlock wrote: post #373

Wow. So few information, but so many people ready to fire his ass. At this point, I wonder if we should have men/women segregation in the workplace. This is the logical conclusion if you want to avoid this kind of problems.

Yes,

I think that people in the USA tend to make extreme reactions with known 'social problems'. Racism lead to an overreaction and abuse from the minorities in _some situations_ [i'm not saying that racism is dead, all I'm saying is that sometimes you spot an overreaction to something]. Sexual harassment lead to this.

If anyone is building a team, the best way to deal with this is to discuss it with the team, and draw a clear line in the sand of what is tolerated and what isn't.

OP: I cannot judge by the information you have given me if this was inappropriate conduit or not, present that info to someone else who is going to be honest to you (you should have a friend or two like that that won't simply pander to you if you're building a company, also, present that without bias)

You being upset might be for a number of reasons.

Then, if it was inappropriate, ask for a lawyers advice to see if this it is ok to do the following: talk with the team and say what is inappropriate and what isn't and what is going to be tolerated and what isn't going to be tolerated, ask their opinion on those guidelines and be flexible on those according to what you hear.

And that's it.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#543

Post by joantune »

ownagefool wrote: post #194
patio11 wrote: post #3

Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer LAWYER . I think the consensus in the grown-up business world is "fire immediately for cause." I would bet substantial money that when you lawyer lawyer lawyer they will advise you to do that and document the heck out of it. The calculus is really, really simple: if you don't, then you will with probability approaching one get this incident or a similar incident cited during a threa…

Really? If he's _just_ hired him, I presume any probationary period would be ongoing and you can let the guy go consequence free? Thus, the most obvious least path of resistance is just to let him go and not really give him cause. I'm not from the US, thus I'm genuinely asking the question. With that said, aren't we potentially overreacting here? Quite a lot of romances spark in the office. The guys tried it on, he's…

Yes, ownagefool, I think that this thread, the more extreme reactions come from an oversensitized USA to the sexual harassment.

One has barely any info other than the attitude of the guy made the CEO upset [and we don't know exactly if that translate to harassment, improper conduct or maybe latent feelings (consider all of these)], yet, everyone is saying fire him.

The asking for a whatsapp and she saying 'only as friends in a work context' can't be seen as a first advance, so it can't be seen as he got rebuked the first time, he got it clear with the MILF remark, she probably rebuked him, if he continued, it is harassment, if not, I wouldn't call it that.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#544

Post by joantune »

vacri wrote: post #437
patio11 wrote: post #3

Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer LAWYER . I think the consensus in the grown-up business world is "fire immediately for cause." I would bet substantial money that when you lawyer lawyer lawyer they will advise you to do that and document the heck out of it. The calculus is really, really simple: if you don't, then you will with probability approaching one get this incident or a similar incident cited during a threa…

Ah, HN. The place where people complain that companies aren't willing to invest in their employees by (re)training them, and the place where firing is demanded if people make a misstep. Embezzlement is not equatable here - embezzlement is an objective crime that attracts jail time. Flirting with someone in the office (even if clumsy) is not - there's plenty of office romances out there, and people don't go to jail fo…

OP: if you want to build a team, scalping people for any misstep won't be a good idea, especially if you have no clear policy regarding what is proper or not.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#545

Post by ownagefool »

nurettin wrote: post #536
ownagefool wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Your no smoke without fire argument relies on the lady in question not being touchy or unresonable. I'd argue donglegate shows that, despite having an army of men willing to defend them, sometimes this is the case. It's also poor form to skip the context like that.

Dunno, I'd kinda assume people are being reasonable by default. That's how societies are built by the majority so that a minority of cynics can find the luxury to make sexist remarks within that established framework.

Well, no. You're assuming the woman is reasonble by default and thus the man must be at fault. This is actually a sexist point of view.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#546

Post by Chris2048 »

bskap wrote: post #224
ownagefool wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? If he's _just_ hired him, I presume any probationary period would be ongoing and you can let the guy go consequence free? Thus, the most obvious least path of resistance is just to let him go and not really give him cause. I'm not from the US, thus I'm genuinely asking the question. With that said, aren't we potentially overreacting here? Quite a lot of romances spark in the office. The guys tried it on, he's…

In the US, almost all employment is at-will. There's no probationary period and any one can be let go at any time without notice for any reason (or no reason) except for a certain list of protected things (gender, race, marital status, and the like). Also, from the description, it seems like the conversation was way more than just "would you like to get a drink" and the guy already didn't back down.

> from the description, it seems like

Exactly, nothing that any HN observer can come to any conclusion with.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#547

Post by Chris2048 »

nurettin wrote: post #536
ownagefool wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Your no smoke without fire argument relies on the lady in question not being touchy or unresonable. I'd argue donglegate shows that, despite having an army of men willing to defend them, sometimes this is the case. It's also poor form to skip the context like that.

Dunno, I'd kinda assume people are being reasonable by default. That's how societies are built by the majority so that a minority of cynics can find the luxury to make sexist remarks within that established framework.

You're focusing on one bad outcome, while ignoring another.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#548

Post by rpcastagna »

tajen wrote: post #520
jasonpeacock wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alas, you don't know what will happen until it does happen. It could be as simple as "Wow, Joe reported Bob for sexual harassment, but Bob didn't do anything wrong - I was there. Now I have to be extra-careful around Joe to avoid getting reported myself!" And there you go - Joe is now suffering from "retaliation" and being treated special for speaking up.

I already don't talk to women in tech conferences. Ok I'll use a different axis. The side effect of working hard on promoting women in tech and tracking harassement is prejudices on the innocent men. As a bystander I want to be given the confidence that men who are fired are guilty. I have seen 2 cases of termination of males, I'm the opposite of convinced. I've also seen more women being promoted than men. I've also…

> I've founded my own company and I'm voting against any progress of women.

I'm not sure you're going to establish a moral high ground by explicitly opposing the progress of equality... I understand you have concerns and you may feel you've been wronged by "gender aware" policies/attitudes, but I don't think it's very controversial to say that women are historically disadvantaged and we need to work that out in some way, however that may be.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#549

Post by stonecraftwolf »

joantune wrote: post #540
stonecraftwolf wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, the world is full of people who are abusive or terrible when in private or one-on-one, yet adhere to social norms when in a group. Every woman I know who has reported her rapist or her harasser has had this said to her in some variation--it couldn't happen here, because we're not like that. It doesn't work that way. I've had conversations with male friends about this that eventually boiled down to, "wel…

now you're implicitly calling the guy a rapist?? What happened to the benefit of the doubt

Obviously not, and that is a reading in such bad faith that it veers into trolling. For anyone reading who is not trolling: the point is that like most other people who break the social rules in some way, abusers, harassers, and yes, rapists, are often very good at publicly performing adherence to social norms while deviating from them in private. Nor do they personally identify as abusers, harassers, rapists--even if they might acknowledge the behavior that defines them as such. This isn't a new phenomenon.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#550

Post by tajen »

rpcastagna wrote: post #548
tajen wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I already don't talk to women in tech conferences. Ok I'll use a different axis. The side effect of working hard on promoting women in tech and tracking harassement is prejudices on the innocent men. As a bystander I want to be given the confidence that men who are fired are guilty. I have seen 2 cases of termination of males, I'm the opposite of convinced. I've also seen more women being promoted than men. I've also…

> I've founded my own company and I'm voting against any progress of women. I'm not sure you're going to establish a moral high ground by explicitly opposing the progress of equality... I understand you have concerns and you may feel you've been wronged by "gender aware" policies/attitudes, but I don't think it's very controversial to say that women are historically disadvantaged and we need to work that out in some…

That's the opposite of what we want to happen? It's important to prove males that they aren't discriminated when we act on women's problems.
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