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Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

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Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#531

Post by ilaksh »

bandrami wrote: post #515
ilaksh wrote: post #466

I don't know if what he was doing was 100% harassment or not but that word makes it at least hard to argue its not. The sad reality is that if a man makes advances towards a woman at work and she isn't interested, it is very possible he will end up being terminated for 'sexual harassment' regardless of what words he uses. Because sexual harassment effectively really boils down to any unwanted advance or even flirtati…

any unwanted advance it should be about actual harassment For your sake, I hope you realize that "an unwanted advance" is "actual harassment".

For your sake, I hope you realize that people might not know that their advance isn't wanted until they try it.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#532

Post by ownagefool »

Splines wrote: post #524
ownagefool wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see your point, but if you're an employee and you're sharing that "so and so texted me this ", what's the motivation behind that? She said she doesn't want to cause problems, but if it's something between two adults and not involving work, I would imagine she would just not say anything, particularly to management. I think you're dangerously into all women are always resonable logic there. It's entirely possible,…

> I think you're dangerously into all women are always resonable logic there. Uhh... seriously? I hope I'm misreading what you wrote here.

Why? Your no smoke without fire argument relies on the lady in question not being touchy or unresonable. I'd argue donglegate shows that, despite having an army of men willing to defend them, sometimes this is the case.

It's also poor form to skip the context like that.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#533

Post by ownagefool »

cortesoft wrote: post #408
ownagefool wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? If he's _just_ hired him, I presume any probationary period would be ongoing and you can let the guy go consequence free? Thus, the most obvious least path of resistance is just to let him go and not really give him cause. I'm not from the US, thus I'm genuinely asking the question. With that said, aren't we potentially overreacting here? Quite a lot of romances spark in the office. The guys tried it on, he's…

Referring to someone as a MILF at work is inappropriate at work, even if you are trying to 'spark a romance'. You don't get a free pass to try anything once. If you are trying to spark a romance, you have to do it in a professional way that leaves the other person an out before you take it to an inappropriate level.

See I think this is a culutre thing, but I imagine it doesn't work for the entire USA but is locked down to the left politically correct spectrum, because to me it's not all that bad a word.

Point being, I could quite happily call someone from work a MILF in a semi-serious / semi-jokey way and get away with it. In fact, I've said worse and had success because if the woman likes you, she'll like the fact you said it.

Now where the problem lies in this example is the guy should have read the signals that she wasn't interested and not just try it on anyways. Then again, I'm not sure why she'd move over to a private medium if she wasn't acting interested.

But I get it, you're outraged at a couple of tidbits of information that aren't guaranteed to be in order and are largely without context of the conversation. I can't really argue with that.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#535

Post by anjc »

runako wrote: post #483
anjc wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I'm not saying that this wasn't unwanted behaviour, and I'm not saying that it wouldn't be construed as harassment if it continued. But in court (it wouldn't ever get to court but) they'd just say "but it's in the Webster's dictionary as a noun and is synonymous with 'attractive', it wasn't meant literally". Then in my country the guy would be able to sue for wrongful dismissal. I get what you're saying though…

I got sucked far enough into this thread and its references to MILF in the dictionary that I became curious as to whether Webster's actually includes MILF. I don't have a printed copy of Webster's handy, and it's not in webster.com. Dictionary.com has it as follows: noun, Slang: Vulgar. 1. an attractive older woman, usually a mother, who is regarded as a sexual object by a younger man. Origin of MILF Expand M(other)…

Every year here in the UKish area the media makes a big deal about what words are being added by the big-wig printed dictionaries. Mostly because, as time goes on, the only words that get added are 'funny' like...YOLO...words like that.

We have different main dictionaries to the US, Oxford English and Chambers, for example, and milf is in all of them as a noun and has been in some for a long time.

So I mean, if even the dictionary says that it's a noun and only that its origin was an acronym which was made a generation ago, I think it's fair to say that anybody could legitimately plead ignorance here, if needs be.

Like I've heard people on TV calling their family members Milfs even, and "incest" doesn't immediately spring to my mind.

I feel like people here are just pretending that they don't know it, effectively, now simply means "attractive" so that they can attack the guy in OP's post.

You wouldn't need to have a jury read it because this case would never ever make it to court, and as I said elsewhere, in any modern country not only could you not fire this guy for this, but if you did fire him you would be probably on the hook for damages due to wrongful dismissal.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#536

Post by nurettin »

ownagefool wrote: post #532
Splines wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think you're dangerously into all women are always resonable logic there. Uhh... seriously? I hope I'm misreading what you wrote here.

Why? Your no smoke without fire argument relies on the lady in question not being touchy or unresonable. I'd argue donglegate shows that, despite having an army of men willing to defend them, sometimes this is the case. It's also poor form to skip the context like that.

Dunno, I'd kinda assume people are being reasonable by default. That's how societies are built by the majority so that a minority of cynics can find the luxury to make sexist remarks within that established framework.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#537

Post by joantune »

exclusiv wrote: post #367
joantune wrote: post #127

What happened to no harm no foul and a slap on the wrist this time and a clear policy to everyone that if it happens again by anyone, it won't be tolerated. Why do you guys jump to the extremes? I'm not in the US lawyer up of A though, but common sense should apply. That said, ask a lawyer first, because clearly that is the land where we get our funny 'news' of 'someone when to court because of ludicrous action X, an…

Yes it wasn't egregious, but I've learned that if clients or employees cause problems early, the chances of it working out is very slim. Plus, a big part of being successful in biz dev is to be able to read people and interact professionally. This person is new and to do what they did shows their 1) arrogance and 2) inability to read people. Biz dev generally means investing in that person financially for some time b…

Maybe it's part of his tactics :)

Well, you may be right on that.

Simply put, IMO what constitutes harassment is if after you hit on someone, they tell you to stop, and you continue.

Or if you do something really bad as groping or saying something obscene. Calling someone a MILF is borderline, he might be just a very honest guy that said what he thought and meant it as a compliment (well, yeah.. a weird compliment).

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#538

Post by joantune »

LargeWu wrote: post #130
joantune wrote: post #127

What happened to no harm no foul and a slap on the wrist this time and a clear policy to everyone that if it happens again by anyone, it won't be tolerated. Why do you guys jump to the extremes? I'm not in the US lawyer up of A though, but common sense should apply. That said, ask a lawyer first, because clearly that is the land where we get our funny 'news' of 'someone when to court because of ludicrous action X, an…

Curious why you think there was no harm done.

Curious why you think there was

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#539

Post by joantune »

nlh wrote: post #301
stonecraftwolf wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh God, yes, lawyer. And yes, fire him. In regards to OPs confusion about the innocent employees trepidation -- there is a reasonable fear of reprisals here. From you, from others on the team, and from the sexual harasser. Reprisals are often not easily identified -- they can be subtle and social in nature. What often happens is that the person who reports harassment is then punished because people no longer want to…

> What often happens is that the person who reports harassment is then punished because people no longer want to talk to her. They keep her out of the loop on casual stuff, but lots of professional discussions happen in casual contexts. Over time, she gets iced out for reporting illegal behavior. I think this really depends on your team dynamic, and I wouldn't necessarily be concerned about this point (as valid as it…

why do you think that it is an inappropriate advance? what is a proper one? I have no info to sustain it being inappropriate other than the OP saying that he was upset by it. And he could be upset by a number of reasons.

Inappropriate would be groping, or very obscene talk, and especially those or continue hitting on someone after she said stop. MILF is borderline.

OP might be upset for other reasons as well.. OP, just consider that.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#540

Post by joantune »

stonecraftwolf wrote: post #385
nlh wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What often happens is that the person who reports harassment is then punished because people no longer want to talk to her. They keep her out of the loop on casual stuff, but lots of professional discussions happen in casual contexts. Over time, she gets iced out for reporting illegal behavior. I think this really depends on your team dynamic, and I wouldn't necessarily be concerned about this point (as valid as it…

The thing is, the world is full of people who are abusive or terrible when in private or one-on-one, yet adhere to social norms when in a group. Every woman I know who has reported her rapist or her harasser has had this said to her in some variation--it couldn't happen here, because we're not like that. It doesn't work that way. I've had conversations with male friends about this that eventually boiled down to, "wel…

now you're implicitly calling the guy a rapist??

What happened to the benefit of the doubt

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