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Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

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Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#471

Post by PhasmaFelis »

gkya wrote: post #389
Mz wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, he did not apologize. Nor did I expect him too. I expected him to treat me with respect, not kiss my ass, curry favor or fear me. I spent some time making sure he understood that I was not a threat to him, not out to get him and that I was also going to do all in my power to respect him. This is how I won his trust. He was a very good looking man in a female majority department. Eventually, he seemed to take a fe…

I'm glad that you exist. From what I get reading these threads on this post, many people with power to fire and hire people know a big glossy nothing about human interaction and psychology. Not even one person gives a thought to whether the guy knows what MILF actually is. Not a single consideration was given to his age, his background, his experience. No chance to make a single mistake. Is it mostly like this in the…

> Not even one person gives a thought to whether the guy knows what MILF actually is.

How could he possibly not know what it means? The acronym doesn't work for "Mom I'd Like to Have Coffee With."

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#472

Post by oldmanjay »

kohanz wrote: post #177
falcolas wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per the side of the story we know. Do you know something not present in this narrative? The use of 'milf', whether it's derogatory or a compliment, will depend entirely on the context of the larger conversation. Something we don't have. Something which apparently the OP didn't have either.

Please provide one example of using the term "MILF" in a professionally appropriate way.

As the director of an "American Pie" franchise entry.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#473

Post by balls187 »

tptacek wrote: post #228
harryh wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to add on a bit more you are probably right about "b) terminate the offending employee for cause" but before you do that you almost certainly have to give the employee a chance to respond to the accusations. If you just fire him before doing that you are likely opening yourself up to a lawsuit for wrongful termination. Yet again, this is something that a lawyer will help you handle correctly.

This is the second comment on the thread I've seen invoking "wrongful termination". By all means, get your lawyer to confirm this fact for you, but: assuming you had the bare minimum competent legal assistance in setting up your company and its hiring documents, there is practically no such thing as wrongful termination in the US. In particular: if it is lawful for you to fire someone at all, it is probably no less l…

> there is practically no such thing as wrongful termination in the US.

This is true.

However, there is nothing also that stops individuals from filing costly "wrongful termination suits" against a company.

In my little slice of the managerial world, we spend time with HR to fully document performance lapses, ensuring we have written statements clearly indicating expectations and whether they are met, solely because if we were to be sued, we could show enough evidence that this individual was terminated because of a lack of performance, despite being given reasonable time to take corrective measures.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#474

Post by randyrand »

worldsayshi wrote: post #311
Mz wrote: post #174

So, I am female. When working at a Fortune 500 company, I once emailed a colleague and copied our two bosses. I advised him to never speak that way to me again. It went to HR. I got interviewed. I assume he got interviewed. He was not fired. He never spoke that way to me again. I eventually reestablished trust with this man and we got on well. I suspect he got sensitivity training. I was not told what went down. It w…

Thank you! People need to be allowed to make mistakes and have a decent chance at improving themselves. For all we know, the person in question might just have arrived from some super sexist workplace where such behaviour is the norm.

> arrived from some super sexist workplace

Sexual harassment is not necessarily sexist and in this case OPs dilemma does not deal with sexism.

Going by the definition of sexism "prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex."

Unless we dilute the word sexism to mean any sexual encounter, hitting on someone does not fit that definition. If it did, nearly every relationship and every person would be considered sexist.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#475

Post by jcrben »

tptacek wrote: post #356
logfromblammo wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the companies I have worked for would likely do exactly that. The problem employee would be terminated as an ordinary cost-cutting layoff, and no one would be the wiser. The expedient solution is to be spineless and cover your own ass. It does not produce the desired behavior at higher levels, but the Nash equilibrium is to do it quietly and kick the can down the road for the next employer to deal with. This…

I believe the threat you're invoking --- from the accused harasser to the employee terminating using their privilege as an at-will employer, to sue for damages stemming from that termination --- is fictitious. Could you clarify by citing a case with this fact pattern which actually made it to trial? * At-will employee * No special contract terms tied to for-cause termination * Disputed or false accusation of harassme…

I'm not sure what you're saying, but if you're asking about how an at-will harasser could win a wrongful termination case, it's worth noting that "at-will" does not actually mean you can "fire whenever for no reason". There are various exceptions; the most open-ended is probably an implied contract or an implied covenant of good faith. You might look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment#Covenant_of...

Regardless of whether the state recognizes an implied covenant of good faith, most states recognize that people can be fired illegally. It can easily come down to a "he said, she said" situation. And if your employee has a long history with the company or did important work, there is a decent chance they can pull together a story for why their firing was improper. Even if no damages are awarded, the attorney fees and time can be quite expensive.

I do recall a specific case not to long ago in Alaska where a police officer sexually harassed a couple coworkers and then was reinstated by an arbitrator. You can read about it here: http://www.leagle.com/decision/In%20AKCO%2020150417013.xml/A...

I doubt cases like the Alaska one above are all that uncommon, altho admittedly the collective bargaining agreement has a major impact. California, in particular, is a notoriously friendly place for employment litigation, moreso than Alaska.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#476

Post by NetStrikeForce »

rsp1984 wrote: post #201

I am not a lawyer, but: Apart from the "Milf" comment I don't see much in your description of events that would qualify as sexual harassment (at least not from my European view of things). Certainly unprofessional but not quite sexually harassing. As far as I understand, the transgressions were "only" verbal and there was no other inappropriate behaviour. Here's what I would do: Collect all the facts and evidence abo…

It's not your European point of view. I'm European and I find utterly disgusting and grounds for termination calling someone else a MILF.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#477

Post by randyrand »

x5n1 wrote: post #24

I really don't understand the environment around sex and relationships in the work place. It's messed up. Someone should be able to express interest and the other person should be able to refuse it. Simple as that. But instead there is a whole drawn out ritual around these things. It's not really grown up thing that adults do, instead any male is looked at as an aggressive offender looking to rape someone, unless the…

I totally agree with you. It should not be illegal to attempt to start a relationship with a coworker. The fact that it is is frightening. It's not something that should require a lawyer when it goes wrong.

To think that hitting on someone in the 'wrong environment' is illegal is RIDICULOUS.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#478

Post by nickpsecurity »

oldmanjay wrote: post #472
kohanz wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please provide one example of using the term "MILF" in a professionally appropriate way.

As the director of an "American Pie" franchise entry.

That was too great given the asker probably thought a correct answer was impossible. Lmao.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#480

Post by randyrand »

dragonwriter wrote: post #147
cybin wrote: post #81

I once worked at a company where my wife was the director of HR. Her boss the president of the company was being "serviced" my a girl in marketing. On day she didn't get a promotion. Then she sued for sexual harresment. The delema put my wife in the hospital. Ruined my marriage. Ruined the ceo's marriage. Ruined the company. Fire them both! Make it very public that you will not tolerate your time being wasted by idio…

If you fire someone for reporting sexual harassment, they have an open-and-shut retaliation case against you. You've just vastly magnified your legal problems if you do this. I'm sorry you have had personal issues in your life stemming from your wife dealing with sexual harassment issues from the HR side, but your emotional reaction based on that experience isn't likely to be the basis for sound advice.

There's a simple answer to that. Change the law!
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