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Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

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Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#421

Post by roasm »

trebor wrote: post #91
patio11 wrote: post #3

Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer LAWYER . I think the consensus in the grown-up business world is "fire immediately for cause." I would bet substantial money that when you lawyer lawyer lawyer they will advise you to do that and document the heck out of it. The calculus is really, really simple: if you don't, then you will with probability approaching one get this incident or a similar incident cited during a threa…

The only thing I would add to patio11's advice is to go back to the employee and let her know what's about to happen. If you do it without any warning, then yes she might feel that it was a breach of trust. But, if you tell her before you fire the guy you can maintain trust.

A valid reason to give to the victim is that you're not just protecting her but any other current or potential victims (using nicer language than this). That will help her feel good about coming forth with the information; she's not causing trouble for the company but actually saving someone else from harassment.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#422

Post by kaitai »

Frozenlock wrote: post #380
tptacek wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She reported it to the founder, presented evidence, and made it clear that the conduct was unwelcome. I'm done at "milf".

The 4 things you mentioned are still false. She made it clear to the FOUNDER that the conduct was unwelcome. Did she tell it to the new employee? Did he repeatedly talk to her in the same manner after being told it was unwelcome? We don't know. I have no problem calling a coworker an "asshole", especially on my own time while taking a beer with him. Without context, that the new employee said "milf" doesn't convey an…

The problem here is that in a workplace you are thinking about whether his seduction technique is abysmal or whether she "likes a little spices". THAT'S THE PROBLEM. By definition, things have gotten dreadfully unprofessional -- especially from your end.

"Well, I just figured I'd grope you because you might like it, and it is after 5 pm..."

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#423

Post by dang »

kazinator wrote: post #189

> Please provide one example of using the term "MILF" in a professionally appropriate way. "Team, some numbers are in. It seems our hot-milfs.xxx domain is bringing in more ad revenue than the rest combined."

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11669698 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#424

Post by kaitai »

gkya wrote: post #389
Mz wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, he did not apologize. Nor did I expect him too. I expected him to treat me with respect, not kiss my ass, curry favor or fear me. I spent some time making sure he understood that I was not a threat to him, not out to get him and that I was also going to do all in my power to respect him. This is how I won his trust. He was a very good looking man in a female majority department. Eventually, he seemed to take a fe…

I'm glad that you exist. From what I get reading these threads on this post, many people with power to fire and hire people know a big glossy nothing about human interaction and psychology. Not even one person gives a thought to whether the guy knows what MILF actually is. Not a single consideration was given to his age, his background, his experience. No chance to make a single mistake. Is it mostly like this in the…

Why would you go to the police?! This is an employment matter, not a criminal matter. And she needs to tell the boss, because she wants to head off retaliation in the workplace.

I get tired of hearing these excuses about age, background, I didn't know what the word meant, in my old workplace I got to harass ladies all the time and it was fine. Just act like a professional. I'd even give the guy a pass if he said, "Look, I'm interested in you and I'd like to go on a date. If you're not interested, just say so and I won't mention it again." At least that's polite, instead of all this textbook boundary testing.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#425

Post by roasm »

venomsnake wrote: post #392
tptacek wrote: post #234

I agree with Patrick: you should terminate the employee, immediately. Try to understand how lucky you just got here. Here's a simple tweak to the story you told that creates a nightmare scenario: the person who reported this to you, who was called a "milf" by the bizdev guy, was on a PIP. I disagree with Patrick on the mechanics, subject to one condition: If, like a sane person, you consulted a lawyer before you bega…

Can you translate to human why " the person who reported this to you, who was called a "milf" by the bizdev guy, was on a PIP." is a nightmare scenario. If she is on a PIP (just checked out what that means), she is on a final warning basically?

You're right. If she was already on a dated and documented PIP before the report, then you're probably OK. It would be worse if you were just about to put her on a PIP.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#426

Post by UK-Al05 »

nerd-fight wrote: post #420
wernercd wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this was "after hours" between two adults? Was it a couple comments, that got rebuffed (You think I'm cute? Thank you, but I'm not interested) and was then dropped? Was it repeated comments that continued after "she" said no? I wouldn't use those terms with someone at work, during working hours... I wouldn't think it's earth ending to compliment someone after hours, outside of the work place (The terminology is a…

Hitting on a fellow employee after work hours with a tinder-esque technique is grounds for termination. The female employee has little recourse to stop the advance, and has not approved it. Workplace courtship protocol requires slow, deliberate advancement with explicit ACKs from the receiver.

You have no absolutely idea, who started the tinder-esque technique. For all you know, she could have been calling him a dirty stud, a day earlier.

If this true? Would you then fire her?

This is why, you need both sides of the story before you can do a "with cause" firing.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#427

Post by benley »

0xdeadbeefbabe wrote: post #397
patio11 wrote: post #3

Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer LAWYER . I think the consensus in the grown-up business world is "fire immediately for cause." I would bet substantial money that when you lawyer lawyer lawyer they will advise you to do that and document the heck out of it. The calculus is really, really simple: if you don't, then you will with probability approaching one get this incident or a similar incident cited during a threa…

Yes, but fast forward 5-10 years and we'll see Ask HN: how do I get rid of this lawyer who insists I can't do anything without his expert advice?

Stop paying them?

I imagine most lawyers tend to go away pretty quickly if you stop giving them money.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#428

Post by kaitai »

natefinch wrote: post #165
falcolas wrote: post #64

Based on the training I've received - document the incident, talk to the problem employee and remind him that this is not appropriate business behavior, and warn him that a repeat performance will not be tolerated, nor will any attempts at retribution aimed at the company at large, or the female employee. Provide training to the company at large, so they know what is, and what is not acceptable in a business. Get tra…

If you don't know by 21 that calling a woman a milf is degrading and offensive, you're never going to learn. Or at least not in any timeframe where it's valid for this company.

Amen. Everyone knows; it's just a kid getting out of punishment to say otherwise. Readers might be impressed at just how resistant some people are to learning what's offensive: they can learn calculus, botanical names, database management, but miraculously just never figure out that hitting on colleagues is problematic.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#429

Post by nerd-fight »

natefinch wrote: post #165
falcolas wrote: post #64

Based on the training I've received - document the incident, talk to the problem employee and remind him that this is not appropriate business behavior, and warn him that a repeat performance will not be tolerated, nor will any attempts at retribution aimed at the company at large, or the female employee. Provide training to the company at large, so they know what is, and what is not acceptable in a business. Get tra…

If you don't know by 21 that calling a woman a milf is degrading and offensive, you're never going to learn. Or at least not in any timeframe where it's valid for this company.

Come on. You've still got a lot to learn about women if you think that. Where appropriate, calling a woman a MILF is actually perfectly acceptable. Here are specific comments I've made to women: "Ummm. MILFY.", to "That is nice, milfy look." The receivers include romantic prospects, girlfriends, my wife, and female friends. It is not something I use everyday, but it is very much within acceptable bounds. No one has ever been offended by my use of the word MILF. Why? Because I understand proper social etiquette. Example: my wife is dressed to the nines before we're about to out. MILF. In my past, woman at bar is receptive to my advances, I comment on her "milfy" shoes.

What is not acceptable is jumping to "MILF" or "DTF?" within a professional setting. Workplace courtship requires careful advancement with an ability to permanently halt at the drop of a hat. The recipient of an advance must always have full power. This new employee failed at corporate worker bee 101. He cannot be trusted with employees, customers, or clients. He should be terminated.

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