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Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

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Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#351
post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, instead, you pick up the can, and have a stern talk with the guy, have him sign some paperwork, and move on. Later, the guy makes untoward comments to someone on a PIP. You don't find out he did this until after you terminate the PIP person, and they sue you. Right in the middle of your next fundraising effort.

I personally believe that short of committing a felony, every employee gets a warning first. I'm not going to be held hostage by the abstract threat of frivolous lawsuits. And yes, with everything including the PIP being documented, that would be a frivolous lawsuit.

Twice in my career I've seen sexual harassment claims raised at a company I worked for after someone departed the company, and twice I've been led to believe the result was a very large cash settlement for the accuser. (Neither case occurred in a company I was in management at).

If your firm has any money in the bank at all, the accuser's lawyer will take the case on contingency, knowing both that you are unlikely to prevail and that your likelihood of prevailing is besides the point because the case will cost a fortune to litigate and taken years to dispose of, during which time you will be frozen on any major business development moves.

You can call these kinds of suits "frivolous" or "unfair" or anything else you'd like. I don't care, as long as you don't also call them "ineffective".

I think there are better places for employees to learn basic standards of professional conduct than in a deposition.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#352
post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't know if the mentioned person's mother tongue is English. They may well not know that MILF is mother I like to f*ck. I'm from a non English speaking country and I can say that I haven't met anybody who'd know that. I myself didn't know that until I read a Wikipedia article. The OP should first try to see if this is the case, otherwise fire them. Some are bad at flirting, and sometimes you say silly things. We…

In many states, intent doesn't matter for sexual harassment -- even if the person saying "MILF" didn't know what it meant, the recipient could still construe it as harassment (and win!).

And some states still execute people and until recently some didn't allow homosexual marriages. Some states kept slavery well into the twentieth century. Do we measure right and wrong with state legislations?

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#353
If someone hasn't said this already, I'd look at firing him as a "teachable moment". It's not a negative, but rather a sign of unity, positivity, support, and togetherness.

Framed correctly, anyone in the company who hears even a rough "person was let go for a serious HR violation" (a lawyer will clarify who can hear what) will come away from the experience with increased rather than diminished confidence in their colleagies and your leadership.

EDIT to add: Also, she's not causing trouble, he is. Very simple.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the lawsuit brought by the person who gets fired, which requires the corporate lawyer to submit at least a brief and motion for dismissal, if not an actual answer to the claims. People occasionally do sue their former employers when they believe they have been wronged in some way. If you fire someone for sexual harassment when no such thing occurred, the ex-employee might sue for no other reason than to get a…

Couldn't the company fire without cause to avoid the potential wrongful termination lawsuits? Or would the company remain exposed to a sexual harassment suit as they couldn't prove they did something as a direct result of the incident.

Most of the companies I have worked for would likely do exactly that. The problem employee would be terminated as an ordinary cost-cutting layoff, and no one would be the wiser.

The expedient solution is to be spineless and cover your own ass. It does not produce the desired behavior at higher levels, but the Nash equilibrium is to do it quietly and kick the can down the road for the next employer to deal with. This is exactly how the Catholic church and the Boy Scouts handled its pedophiles--cover it up and delay accountability indefinitely.

If there may be a threat to sue, offer a severance package that precludes civil lawsuits.

I was once laid off, and I suspect the reason for it was that the company did not want to pay off on my as-yet-unvested options at a time when the public stock was at an all-time high. I didn't sue, because the severance package was worth more to me than the potentially years-long litigation hassle. They, in turn, never admitted to any particular reason for laying me off. If I'm going to end up screwed either way, I'd prefer the method that allows me to get it over with and get on with my life the next day.

The impetus to throw just enough money at the problem to make it disappear fuels some of the scams that prey on very large companies. This is closely related to the business model for patent trolls. If you ask for slightly less money than litigation would cost, you get quietly paid.

Edit:

Most civil cases don't go to trial, and I don't care enough about my own disposable post on the Internet to go look up legal citations as a tangentially interested non-lawyer just because some other disposable post on the Internet asked for them. My point was that corporate employers are amoral, and would prefer to handle a potentially hairy situation cheaply rather than ethically. The only points required are as follows. 1. It is possible that a recently terminated employee could sue the former employer; it even happens occasionally in real life. 2. Such a lawsuit has a nonzero cost to the employer (and also the ex-employee). 3. Therefore, the employer can theoretically save money by bribing the ex-employee with a lesser amount than in #2 to not sue. 4. This could potentially allow the ex-employee to escape the consequences of actions that may or may not have led to the termination.

The general consensus among companies is to do the easy thing, not the right thing.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#355
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't this person simply get fired. No cause. Even if you want to give them the benefit of doubt (which seems extremely unmerited, given the presented evidence) why would you want to employ someone who shows such poor judgement? This is not a college dorm room. This is a professional setting, and while it is natural for romances to take place, this is in very poor taste to say the least, and even if it had been i…

I'm wondering this too, mainly because the OP said "just hired". Most employment agreements have a probationary period (e.g., 3 months) where the employer can terminate the new hire without cause.

Most employment agreements (in the US) absolutely do not have a probationary period of that kind. That would be quite unusual.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't the company fire without cause to avoid the potential wrongful termination lawsuits? Or would the company remain exposed to a sexual harassment suit as they couldn't prove they did something as a direct result of the incident.

Most of the companies I have worked for would likely do exactly that. The problem employee would be terminated as an ordinary cost-cutting layoff, and no one would be the wiser. The expedient solution is to be spineless and cover your own ass. It does not produce the desired behavior at higher levels, but the Nash equilibrium is to do it quietly and kick the can down the road for the next employer to deal with. This…

I believe the threat you're invoking --- from the accused harasser to the employee terminating using their privilege as an at-will employer, to sue for damages stemming from that termination --- is fictitious.

Could you clarify by citing a case with this fact pattern which actually made it to trial?

* At-will employee

* No special contract terms tied to for-cause termination

* Disputed or false accusation of harassment (or, if you like, any claim of harassment whatsoever --- or, really, any "cause" whatsoever)

* Terminated, either formally for cause or for no cause

* Claim of damages stemming from the termination itself

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He called her a milf to her face. That's completely unacceptable. She was clear when she said "as friends at work". It wouldn't have been harassment if he hadn't been so crude and suggestive. if he'd just said "hey, want to have dinner some time?" Then it would have been a little forward, but not harassment. He didn't. He said "You're a mom I'd like to fuck". It doesn't have to be ongoing to be harassment. Once you'v…

That is her side of the story, which does not have be necessarily true.

milfseriously stated that he saw the conversation/evidence

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#358
Consult your lawyer.

I've attended a few sexual harassment training's over the years. There are no clear cut rules. In fact, in my first training, harassment couldn't occur until the other sex said "stop, no, etc." In the last one I attended, things aren't so clear cut, and it seems like the lawyers have made sexual harassment so unclear that the only ones who can determine it are the lawyers themselves.

It doesn't matter that it was after work, using a non-work communication medium. It still could be or maybe its not harassment.

You are going to have to talk with her and let her know that you have to act upon this. You don't know what is going to happen. At a bare minimum, something is going to his HR file. At worse, a lawsuit is going to happen.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#359

As an experienced biz dev person, I feel like I understand this type of employee and have worked with them many times. Based on the feedback from your female employee, it sounds like her concern is this happening to other people who doesn't "know how to deal with it" and that is why she got you involved. She doesn't seem concerned with short term repercussions, more about this employee's attitude needing adjustment f…

What the victim wants isn't relevant to the decision of how to handle the harasser. The reason the harasser should be fired is that they are creating egregious risk for the company. All that has to change in this story to create a nightmare scenario is for this bizdev person to have harassed someone who was already on a PIP, or who is about to be placed on one, or someone who has a preexisting grievance with the comp…

Good points. To add to this - biz dev is outwardly representing your company in ways other employees don't. Do you want this person interacting with potential partners or clients in this manner?

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#360
post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm wondering this too, mainly because the OP said "just hired". Most employment agreements have a probationary period (e.g., 3 months) where the employer can terminate the new hire without cause.

Most employment agreements (in the US) absolutely do not have a probationary period of that kind. That would be quite unusual.

Ok. Where I live - Canada - it's very commonplace.
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