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Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

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Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#261

Post by DanBC »

boosting7669 wrote: post #148
gruez wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why both? What did the female employee do wrong?

A startup company is a different beast from a well established organization that has time to kill on moderating interpersonal matters that really should be left to the two private individuals to work out on their own. If I have an employee whose skin is so graphene thin that being called a MILF is something worthy of getting management involved, forcing the startup company to engage a lawyer in an expensive legal dil…

When a woman is called a milf (along with the other poor conduct) she reports it even if she thinks it's mild because she doesn't know what he's saying or doing to other women in the company.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#263

Post by tptacek »

sizzzzlerz wrote: post #260

Nip this in the bud right now! This isn't the guy's first attempt at harassment (there is no other word for it) and it will not be his last. If you have a no-tolerance clause in your employee manual, fire the guy. If not, a serious discussion is in order and, depending upon how it goes, either the guy is immediately fired or is placed on double secret probation for some period of time. Explain that if this happens ag…

You don't need a clause in your employment contract to enable you to fire someone for unwelcome sexual advances. What you need is the standard employment contract that establishes employees have been hired at-will and without any implied contracts to the contrary. You must have that document no matter what --- it's what makes it safe for you to fire anyone.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#264

Post by harryh »

tptacek wrote: post #256
harryh wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK first off I will 100% admit that I am not an expert in this area and hence could be wrong (going back to the previously agreed upon advice that "Lawyer up" is clearly the right thing to do). That having been said, I have received training, by a lawyer, about how to manage situations in which a sexual harassment claim has been made. In that training I was told that the accused employee has a right to hear and respo…

I'm not a lawyer either, but I believe that with the exception of defamation --- getting back to "be careful about the words 'for cause'" --- it's not true that you legally owe an accused employee process before terminating them. I think what you were told was false, or that you misunderstood it. I don't think that the victims of a false harassment claim are entitled to damages for their termination. I would welcome…

I think we're pretty much on the same page here tbh. As I also was told, and believe, that being careful about the words "for cause" is almost always the right thing to do. I think it's pretty much only this series of steps that can get you into trouble:

1) Employee A claims that Employee B harassed them

2) Company doesn't put in any effort to hear Employee B's side of the story

3) Employee B is fired "for cause" for sexual harassment. Generally it's also not just the words here. It also comes with things like "no severance pay even though severance pay was typical for other fired employees."

4) It turns out that the original claim was bogus

In this specific scenario, the company could have problems.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#265

Post by danieltillett »

ChrisDutrow wrote: post #246

As someone who's done a lot of hiring and firing, the part that stands out most to me is not the sexual harassment part, but the fact that he was just hired and already is causing problems. Normal people tend to be cautious and respectful at first. By immidiately jumping in and pushing boundaries, this person is demonstrating that he doesn't care about your company, he doesn't care what you or anybody there thinks ab…

This. The likelihood is this is going to just be the tip of the iceberg when it comes to future problems.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#266

Post by tptacek »

rdiddly wrote: post #198
Mz wrote: post #174

So, I am female. When working at a Fortune 500 company, I once emailed a colleague and copied our two bosses. I advised him to never speak that way to me again. It went to HR. I got interviewed. I assume he got interviewed. He was not fired. He never spoke that way to me again. I eventually reestablished trust with this man and we got on well. I suspect he got sensitivity training. I was not told what went down. It w…

Ding ding ding, first cogent, non-hysterical, mature comment on the page! Edit: In the spirit of trying to actually add some worthwhile content in my comment: Harassment sucks, just like not knowing a core skill of one's job, sucks. But demanding perfection in either case is not a reasonable approach. When someone joins, and they don't meet expectations, you have to tell them they didn't meet expectations, show them…

Refusing to tolerate unwelcome, overt, and repeated workplace sexual advances isn't a demand for perfection; it's a demand for a minimal standard of professional conduct. It's right there on the list along with "don't steal, don't try to finagle kickbacks from suppliers, don't physically threaten employees" and so on.

There are better places for bizdev and sales people to learn professionalism than in depositions.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#267

Post by ScottBurson »

harryh wrote: post #185
jonnathanson wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't upvote this enough. Patrick's advice is very sound. (Except, perhaps, for that last bit about what to say in an email to employees -- before sending any such email, please refer to Patrick's earlier, superseding advice to "Lawyer Lawyer Lawyer." Let your lawyer basically dictate what your email will say.) There are ways of handling this that have been worked out through decades of practice and litigation. Thi…

Just to add on a bit more you are probably right about "b) terminate the offending employee for cause" but before you do that you almost certainly have to give the employee a chance to respond to the accusations. If you just fire him before doing that you are likely opening yourself up to a lawsuit for wrongful termination. Yet again, this is something that a lawyer will help you handle correctly.

> you almost certainly have to give the employee a chance to respond to the accusations

If all the OP had was the claims of the harassed employee, you might have a point. But the OP claims to have seen the actual texts sent.

IANAL, and of course a lawyer should be consulted, but I would be very surprised if there were any danger in firing the employee without further ado.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#268

Post by jeremyt »

hermannj314 wrote: post #109

Please get someone from HR involved. Do not immediately fire the employee as this could lead to severe financial problems for you. Despite the peasant with pitchforks in this comment section, wrongful termination / paying unemployment / litigation, etc. is also something you may want to avoid. This employee of yours may not be aware of the policy or the law and is possibly entitled to progressive disciplinary action…

Who are all these people who think a small startup has a HR department?

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#269

Post by Loughla »

anjc wrote: post #251
Loughla wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

k. Let's do that, then. https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm "It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person’s sex. Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature." or https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/publications/fs-sex.cfm "Sexual harassment can occur in a v…

You've literally cherry picked sentences from your own links to avoid pointing out that - as I originally said - instances of harassment such as being called a "milf" must occur at a demonstrably frequent enough rate that it creates a hostile work environment. I.e. you must be harassed, not simply affronted. It appears that you realised this halfway through your post...? Anyway, there is no court in the western world…

I was saying you were wrong that Milf doesn't mean mother I would like to fuck, and that it could be construed as harassing language.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#270

Post by gommm »

joering2 wrote: post #252
snowwrestler wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apart from the "Milf" comment I don't see much in your description of events that would qualify as sexual harassment Well yes, it might be hard to see the sexual harassment once you've decided to set aside the sexually harassing part.

Excuse me, but where was it? Also, Milf can be sexual harassment. Sure. So can be telling someone "you look nice". I worked with someone that was bashed by HR by telling a co-worker "I like your new haircut". I didn't see it as SH. It depends on point of view.

There's a clear difference between "I like your new haircut" which I agree is not sexual harassment and MILF: Mother I'd Like to Fuck (which is just slightly above calling your coworker slut). The second sentence is sexual harassment.
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