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Zenefits Was the Perfect Startup, Then It Self-Disrupted

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Re: Zenefits Was the Perfect Startup, Then It Self-Disrupted

#191

Post by pbreit »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #179
baddox wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like your "poisoning the society" claim is highly subjective, based on how you perceive their actions and what you think is the the "ideal" society. For me, and presumably a bunch of other people, AirBnB and Uber provide really services far superior to their predecessors.

I don't think it's that highly a subjective viewpoint, if you don't ignore the social aspects of their business altogether. I do agree that the level of service of Uber (and probably AirBnB) is superior; I may also agree that a lot of regulations they're working around should be revisited. But the idea that when you don't like a law, you're free to ignore it is not something acceptable in a civilized society. There a…

I think it's mainly exploiting that the laws are kinda dumb and only perhaps made sense in an earlier age.

Re: Zenefits Was the Perfect Startup, Then It Self-Disrupted

#192

Post by pbreit »

jacalata wrote: post #152
pbreit wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AirBnB, PayPal & Uber are better examples. The "follow the rules period crowd" would never have let them succeed. Is that really what we want?

Why PayPal?

For starters, acting like a bank.

Re: Zenefits Was the Perfect Startup, Then It Self-Disrupted

#193

Post by polyomino »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #179
baddox wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like your "poisoning the society" claim is highly subjective, based on how you perceive their actions and what you think is the the "ideal" society. For me, and presumably a bunch of other people, AirBnB and Uber provide really services far superior to their predecessors.

I don't think it's that highly a subjective viewpoint, if you don't ignore the social aspects of their business altogether. I do agree that the level of service of Uber (and probably AirBnB) is superior; I may also agree that a lot of regulations they're working around should be revisited. But the idea that when you don't like a law, you're free to ignore it is not something acceptable in a civilized society. There a…

Next week, it will be lawmakers soliciting terrible advice from the electorate. When will this horror end?

Re: Zenefits Was the Perfect Startup, Then It Self-Disrupted

#194

Post by polyomino »

mcguire wrote: post #175
zackya89 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

every sillicon valley investor knows it, the very famous quote "break the rules and ask for forgiveness later" plenty doing it from Zenefits, to Uber and AirBnb...

And yet when Union Carbide does it, they're the bad guys.

They forgot the crucial first step: be cool

Re: Zenefits Was the Perfect Startup, Then It Self-Disrupted

#195

Post by patrickread »

tyre wrote: post #185
philovivero wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering my viewpoint on hires being almost the opposite of that (an occasional bad hire is acceptable risk to get a good one) I'd be interested in the rationale. But then, I've never been one to beat around the bush when it comes to parting ways with an employee who's clearly not working out on the team.

The rationale is that a bad hire is very expensive. Not just salary, but emotional and temporal investment. Let's say you need to hire a salesperson and hire the wrong one. You fire them after two months and now have to context switch into hiring again. For small startups, firings have an effect on the entire company. Absolutely make the right choice and let someone go if you have to, but it still has an amplified co…

Yea, I agree with this one as well. Hire slowly; fire fast. But, even if it's fast, firing wastes a bunch of time for a bunch of people.

Missing out on a good one sucks, but in the best relationships both sides will wait for the right timing if necessary, in my experience.

Re: Zenefits Was the Perfect Startup, Then It Self-Disrupted

#196

Post by aianus »

snappy173 wrote: post #124
jayess wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the mean time, who was harmed?

The reason you require licensing for insurance sales is because it's very difficult to track all of the individual instances of malfeasance. So, the answer to your question is, "I don't know." But just because I don't have particular instances of harm, doesn't mean this isn't an problem. If you let anybody sell health insurance, you end up with con artists selling sham insurance, and by the time you track down the co…

> The reason you require licensing for insurance sales is because it's very difficult to track all of the individual instances of malfeasance.

And what's the reason for handing out these licenses based on butt-in-seat study time instead of a proctored exam and/or interview?

Re: Zenefits Was the Perfect Startup, Then It Self-Disrupted

#197

Post by crdb »

kafkaesq wrote: post #180
carsongross wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know how to feel about it. But you rightly recognize that there is a prisoners dilemma when it comes to moral behavior. Your stomach is tempting you to defect. Your heart is telling you not to. And your head is wondering how the game could be structured to favor your heart over your stomach.

Your stomach is tempting you to defect. Your heart is telling you not to. And then, thankfully, your brain chimes in, and reminds you that while short-term PD-like scenarios seem to reward defection, in iterative scenarios -- more comparable to PD-like situations we encounter in real life -- it is cooperation (or at least, not fucking your neighbor over for the sake of short-term gain) that is very strongly incentivi…

I wish some of my clients understood that.

One just ruined all the goodwill they built up with me over the past year (which got them countless free hours, crunch time at short notice, etc.) by stiffing my company of about a grand - literally a few hours' work - on some badly structured justification, the real reason being he felt his colleague was not negotiating hard enough with me and he "showed him".

Now I'm going to stick to the contract hours and probably prioritise other work over theirs; I also changed the payment terms to be upfront to avoid stiffing, and if they want extra hours, guess what, their sticker price went up from their discounted price for longstanding cooperative clients to "market rate". I guess the thousand bucks is visible and the value they lost isn't, so he probably thinks he was very successful.

It bewilders me that someone can be in business for years and not understand that cooperation is a better strategy, but there are a lot out there. I've found the short term cost of cooperating with defectors worth it in the long run, though.

Re: Zenefits Was the Perfect Startup, Then It Self-Disrupted

#199

Post by argonaut »

kafkaesq wrote: post #180
carsongross wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know how to feel about it. But you rightly recognize that there is a prisoners dilemma when it comes to moral behavior. Your stomach is tempting you to defect. Your heart is telling you not to. And your head is wondering how the game could be structured to favor your heart over your stomach.

Your stomach is tempting you to defect. Your heart is telling you not to. And then, thankfully, your brain chimes in, and reminds you that while short-term PD-like scenarios seem to reward defection, in iterative scenarios -- more comparable to PD-like situations we encounter in real life -- it is cooperation (or at least, not fucking your neighbor over for the sake of short-term gain) that is very strongly incentivi…

The problem with this is you only have so many shots at a startup (you only have so much energy / free time / savings / time before you have other obligations). So it is unclear to me whether there are actually enough iterations for the right strategy to not be to break rules when convenient and ask for forgiveness later.

Let's also not forget that Conrad is not going to jail. It's a billion dollar company that's going to pay millions in fines.

Re: Zenefits Was the Perfect Startup, Then It Self-Disrupted

#200

Post by argonaut »

mcguire wrote: post #175
zackya89 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

every sillicon valley investor knows it, the very famous quote "break the rules and ask for forgiveness later" plenty doing it from Zenefits, to Uber and AirBnb...

And yet when Union Carbide does it, they're the bad guys.

They're breaking civil regulations, not (proximately) killing people.
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