SpaceX lands rocket at sea second time after satellite launch • Hacker News Board

Re: SpaceX lands rocket at sea second time after satellite launch

#471

Post by MertsA » Sat, May 07, 2016, 4:00 AM UTC

ansible wrote: post #448

rdancer wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the barge outweighs the rocket by orders of magnitude The energy amount the rocket impacts with is dominated by its speed, not its mass. A small, fast-travelling projectile can make a hole in just about any kind of armour. The terminal velocity is quite low, but that's in part because of the way it is engineered — an ICBM would probably be able to put a hole through a ship deck with ease. There is a lot of reasonin…

The energy amount the rocket impacts with is dominated by its speed, not its mass. A small, fast-travelling projectile can make a hole in just about any kind of armour. The terminal velocity is quite low, but that's in part because of the way it is engineered — an ICBM would probably be able to put a hole through a ship deck with ease. While what you've said is true, in practice it isn't a problem. If the F9 first st…

That brings up an interesting question, can't the range safety officer just scuttle the first stage after separation? I can't imagine that they don't have that capability after separation.

Re: SpaceX lands rocket at sea second time after satellite launch

#472

Post by markvdb » Sat, May 07, 2016, 7:17 AM UTC

fit2rule wrote: post #242

shiven wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yoo.Ess.Ae! Yoo.Ess.Ae! Yoo.Ess.Aeh! There. See. No harm, no foul. Anyways, as a non-American living in the US since 2001, I fail to see an issue with chanting USA, one way or another. It is an American company, with majority US employees, running this project (mainly) for an American entity (NASA), on US sovereign territory (or ocean?), using a significant chunk of US resources. So, it is their company and their cou…

I think its offensive to have nationalistic robot-like-chanting being defended as an okay thing. Its the sort of thing you expect people to do at rallies or cult gatherings, and from an outsider perspective it always tarnishes what is otherwise a very rational event, because its an implied irrational, collective mindset. As a non-American, I wish it'd stop - its a major turnoff for these events, and I switch away whe…

"ON! TO! MARS! ON! TO! MARS!". I would sooo much love to hear that chant next time.

That would really do justice to this kind of historic event. A chant like this would celebrate progress and claim this for what it is, an accomplishment of/for humanity. After all, space travel does focus our attention on how we are all humans and on earth.

In that context, the below seems at least somewhat relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internationalism_(politics)#Mo... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_citizenship#World_citiz...

Re: SpaceX lands rocket at sea second time after satellite launch

#473

Post by Inconel » Sat, May 07, 2016, 7:51 AM UTC

jamesknelson wrote: post #461

Inconel wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for sharing your point of view and I appreciate you doing so in a respectful manner and taking my own feelings on the subject into account. I'm still not sure what the best solution to this problem would be. While I certainly believe that everyone, including and perhaps especially Americans, should be more cognizant of how our actions are viewed by others, I don't in general like the idea of constantly being f…

Reading this thread has been an interesting opportunity for introspection. A number of people on both sides have made very valid points. In particular, your description of the atmosphere on the inside makes the whole thing quite a lot easier to accept, and even get behind. With this said, I think I've also come to understand more about why instinctively I feel a little uncomfortable. It is because as a foreigner who…

Thanks for the kind words and believe me when I say how disappointed I feel knowing that there are many people like you who would like to work at SpaceX that aren’t afforded the opportunity simply because of where you happened to be born. I can definitely understand how under your circumstances you may feel that the USA chants are exclusionary and I certainly harbor no ill will if that is how you feel. I would probably feel the same way if I were in your shoes.

Speaking of introspection, your comment highlights for me just how lucky I am to be able to work here. I say this as an immigrant who, while growing up in the US from an early age, wasn’t granted US citizenship until adulthood, so I have some first hand experience with the overly complex US immigration process.

ITAR is a tricky issue seeing as a Falcon 9 isn’t all that different from an ICBM aside from payload but I do generally feel that the US tends to over classify programs. And while I believe the US should make the process of immigration much less burdensome, I am nonetheless inspired by how many foreign born employees I meet at SpaceX. I wonder if the percentage of non EU born workers at Arianespace approaches the number of non US born workers here. I would be genuinely pleased if they were better in this regard than we are. I could be wrong but I doubt that Roscosmos, JAXA, ISRO or CNSA employ very many foreign born citizens. Having said that, I don’t mean to dismiss the very real concerns you have expressed with the difficulty of immigrating to the US, particularly if you don’t have a great deal of wealth.

Again, I’m very sympathetic to the feelings that others have expressed with regards to the USA chants being exclusionary, even if I myself don’t believe this to be their intent. My main problem with some comments in this thread have centered around equating the chants with a Nazi rally or describing those who engage in them as classless or devoid of dignity. I find those statements a tad extreme and the fact that some of those statements went unchallenged suggests to me that there may be many people here who hold similar views, which I find surprising.

Thanks again for sharing your perspective with me.

Re: SpaceX lands rocket at sea second time after satellite launch

#474

Post by fit2rule » Sat, May 07, 2016, 8:03 AM UTC

markvdb wrote: post #472

fit2rule wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think its offensive to have nationalistic robot-like-chanting being defended as an okay thing. Its the sort of thing you expect people to do at rallies or cult gatherings, and from an outsider perspective it always tarnishes what is otherwise a very rational event, because its an implied irrational, collective mindset. As a non-American, I wish it'd stop - its a major turnoff for these events, and I switch away whe…

"ON! TO! MARS! ON! TO! MARS!". I would sooo much love to hear that chant next time. That would really do justice to this kind of historic event. A chant like this would celebrate progress and claim this for what it is, an accomplishment of/for humanity. After all, space travel does focus our attention on how we are all humans and on earth. In that context, the below seems at least somewhat relevant: https://en.wikipe…

I completely agree. They should change the chant to exactly as you describe.

Re: SpaceX lands rocket at sea second time after satellite launch

#475

Post by fit2rule » Sat, May 07, 2016, 8:04 AM UTC

Inconel wrote: post #427

lostlogin wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watch a Hitler rally and that feeling you get is what I feel about chanting, clapping nationalism.

The idea that a group of SpaceX employees chanting "USA", not "Europe Sucks" or "Death to Russia", or some other chant that specifically calls out and demeans another group, but simply USA-USA-USA, is somehow analogous to a Nazi rally is very surprising to me.

Perhaps you haven't taken enough time to observe and understand the conditions of those who are on the receiving end of Americas military-industrial aggression...

Re: SpaceX lands rocket at sea second time after satellite launch

#476

Post by Inconel » Sat, May 07, 2016, 9:25 AM UTC

fit2rule wrote: post #475

Inconel wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that a group of SpaceX employees chanting "USA", not "Europe Sucks" or "Death to Russia", or some other chant that specifically calls out and demeans another group, but simply USA-USA-USA, is somehow analogous to a Nazi rally is very surprising to me.

Perhaps you haven't taken enough time to observe and understand the conditions of those who are on the receiving end of Americas military-industrial aggression...

I would be wary in making assumptions about a stranger's background and what conditions they may or may not have grown up under prior to immigrating to the US. I can assure you I am more than familiar with the receiving end of both American and Russian military aggression.

I continue to find the notion of SpaceX employees chanting USA to be analogous to the rallies of a man who thought it a good idea to send several million people to the gas chambers as suspect.

I suppose I'll just chalk this up to me not being as enlightened as you.

Re: SpaceX lands rocket at sea second time after satellite launch

#477

Post by T-A » Sat, May 07, 2016, 10:22 AM UTC

brianwawok wrote: post #95

Here is the video http://www.space.com/32811-spacex-rocket-landing-jcsat-14-la... Hopefully we won't have the typical hacker news discussion about why the employees chant USA.

On-To-Mars, On-To-Mars!

Makes much more sense, should be good for years. You saw it here first. :D

Re: SpaceX lands rocket at sea second time after satellite launch

#478

Post by pol0nium » Sat, May 07, 2016, 11:40 AM UTC

zardo wrote: post #446

sandworm101 wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are protocols for securing unsecured cargo. Whether delivered by rocket or crane, things land on decks every day and are tied down by hand.

In conditions where it's going to be sliding around on the deck?

Yes, see this example : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3idQKi5EqM

Re: SpaceX lands rocket at sea second time after satellite launch

#479

Post by nickik » Sat, May 07, 2016, 12:02 PM UTC

grondilu wrote: post #449

nickik wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should we care. I see no benfit in government funded rockets. I much rather see ESA buy launches on a competitive market. The should invest in innovative new missions instead of an ill fated attempted to beat comercial producers at rocket development. Other then subsadising your own industry and for military reasons, their is no argument for making your own rockets. Both those are terrible arguments.

I'm not sure Stephane Israël's warning is directed at governments. It's more of a warning call for all European industrials who should increase their efforts to prepare for the present and upcoming US competition. I mean it's not as if Ariane 6 is being built entirely by government money. It's more complicated than that. As a matter of fact, a new company Airbus Safran Launches [1] has recently been created out of th…

As far as I can tell Arian 6 will get tons of government money, almost 3 billion, while private share is only about 0.5 billion. Even with this massive investment the estimated costs are per launch are still quite high.

SpaceX actually has to do a lot of work for those government contracts, and they will lose that money if they can not diliver the capability in the required amount of time. They had to carry most devlopment cost themself and they were also always flighing comercial launches. Governemnts are 70% of the launch market, so I don't think any space company can or will live totally without government contracts.

If they can make the Ariane 6 compete within a decent price, I am not against some government contracts going to them. It makes sense not to give all contracts to one company, but Arianspace (or whoever) has to first devlop a rocket without massiv governemnt investment and show that they are in the 20% range of price. If they can not do that, their are other companies who you can go to. Sure its not fair if the rockets from china or russia are subsidised (not saying the are or ar not) but thats good for Europe because we get cheaper launches that are payed for by other governments.

Re: SpaceX lands rocket at sea second time after satellite launch

#480

Post by stupidcar » Sat, May 07, 2016, 12:57 PM UTC

grondilu wrote: post #449

nickik wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should we care. I see no benfit in government funded rockets. I much rather see ESA buy launches on a competitive market. The should invest in innovative new missions instead of an ill fated attempted to beat comercial producers at rocket development. Other then subsadising your own industry and for military reasons, their is no argument for making your own rockets. Both those are terrible arguments.

I'm not sure Stephane Israël's warning is directed at governments. It's more of a warning call for all European industrials who should increase their efforts to prepare for the present and upcoming US competition. I mean it's not as if Ariane 6 is being built entirely by government money. It's more complicated than that. As a matter of fact, a new company Airbus Safran Launches [1] has recently been created out of th…

Are engineers in Europe really less passionate about their job than those in the US? Personally, I'm skeptical. For sure, having a mission to go to Mars is cool, but just working on rockets alone seems like it should be exciting enough to inspire passion and hard work.

I would guess that European rocket engineers are, or could be, just as passionate, and work just as hard as those in the US. But what saps the passion of engineers is bureaucracy, inefficiency and mismanagement that slows them down and interferes with their work, and by most accounts, these problems infest the aeronautical industry, on both sides of the Atlantic.

SpaceX has managed to build a company that doesn't seem to suffer from these problems. From reading Elon Musk's biography, it doesn't sound to me like the SpaceX engineers are driven by some dream of landing on Mars, even if that's Musk's goal. Rather, they just have a no-nonsense, "get stuff done" attitude. They don't spend weeks doing tests when they can get them all done in one day. They don't spend millions of dollars buying outsourced components when they can build them better and cheaper themselves. They don't thoughtlessly replicate inefficient processes because that's how it's always been done, or it's done everywhere else in the industry.

Put Elon Musk and his management staff in charge of the ESA and I bet they'd install the same no-nonsense attitude in European engineers, and it would be Ariane that was delivering reusability before everyone else. As it is, let's just hope that the example SpaceX sets eventually pays off in changes to the way NASA, the ESA, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, etc. are run.

Although I think that the big US defense contractors would rather get out of spaceflight completely than match SpaceX's costs. Because if they can, then it proves they could have done it all along, and that they've been hugely overcharging the US government for years. And if they've been overcharging for access to space, it might make congress ask questions about all the other pork-barrel military contracts they get, and why they can't deliver those cheaper as well?