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GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

givedirectly.org

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Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#151

Post by dragonwriter »

tootie wrote: post #150
mwambua wrote: post #124

I'm a Kenyan and I can tell you that this will do more harm than good. NGO money has been distorting our economy for years now... giving people livelihoods they can't sustain, making job opportunities that create no value and making our government vestigial. The poor people that you're supporting elect the same corrupt politicians every year because they have no idea that the government is supposed to be supporting t…

This is the inverse of what NGOs do. Put money in the hands of consumers and let them drive local markets to produce what they actually want and need.

It is actually an NGO doing this, and its not the only NGO that fits something closer to that description than its inverse.

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#152

Post by rayiner »

skunkworks wrote: post #139
mwambua wrote: post #124

I'm a Kenyan and I can tell you that this will do more harm than good. NGO money has been distorting our economy for years now... giving people livelihoods they can't sustain, making job opportunities that create no value and making our government vestigial. The poor people that you're supporting elect the same corrupt politicians every year because they have no idea that the government is supposed to be supporting t…

How are poor people supposed to find innovative solutions to their problems and elect governments that create sustainable wealth while they're steeped in desperate poverty? I believe that education is the tip of the spear, but are there any examples where a poor majority has pulled itself up by its bootstraps?

Most of the western world?

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#153

Post by 2noame »

rewrew wrote: post #115
jefe_ wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people in Haiti receive bags of USAID Rice (grown elsewhere) for free, there no longer is a need for Haitian Grown Rice and it hurts local farmers. I'm not sure this translates to direct injections of cash however. I've spent time in East Africa and everyone always asks, what does Africa 'need.' I typically say: money. There are lots of great ideas and lots of enterprising people at all social levels of the regi…

I regularly do low-interest loans to African entrepreneurs via Zidisha -- that's money that's helpful in a concentrated way, vs. bulk money that I'm skeptical won't have negative consequences.

In that case, you may want to read this.

http://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-...

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#154

Post by TheMagicHorsey »

mwambua wrote: post #124

I'm a Kenyan and I can tell you that this will do more harm than good. NGO money has been distorting our economy for years now... giving people livelihoods they can't sustain, making job opportunities that create no value and making our government vestigial. The poor people that you're supporting elect the same corrupt politicians every year because they have no idea that the government is supposed to be supporting t…

Your government is already vestigial, I'm sorry to say.

Giving aid is the worst thing possible if its given to the state. But giving it to the citizens is perhaps better, because they can directly improve their lives by investing in their children, in better tools, and in things like cattle that can directly generate sustainable income.

Free money won't destroy your society. It's how that free money comes into your society that is disruptive. If the money comes in top down it distorts the economy. But if its given from the bottom, then perhaps things can get better. Its not an experiment that has been tried before.

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#155

Post by ThrustVectoring »

awt wrote: post #127
ThrustVectoring wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because money is not wealth. Owning money is equivalent to being considered to be owed something by society at large. Each group is roughly equally capable of trading that debt for the real goods and services they wish to receive in order to consider society's obligation satisfied. They're going to get different things, of course, but that's a side issue.

In that case, wouldn't you say though that if you receive money without working for it, you aren't really owed anything by society at large? Is it possible to transfer the "having done work" from one person to another? And no, investing does not fall into this category.

No? There's no distinction in my mind between having money and being owed the value of that money in real goods and services.

Like, it's not a moral matter, more like an accounting identity. People who have money are owed things, and the debt can be resolved by exchanging said money for the things the money-owners want. This works not because people who own money "deserve" to get things, but because this is how society has decided to keep track of who should get things - that is, by paying for those things.

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#156

Post by nathanappere »

rayiner wrote: post #152
skunkworks wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are poor people supposed to find innovative solutions to their problems and elect governments that create sustainable wealth while they're steeped in desperate poverty? I believe that education is the tip of the spear, but are there any examples where a poor majority has pulled itself up by its bootstraps?

Most of the western world?

(So all Kenya needs to do is create a colonial empire and exploit other countries ?)

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#157

Post by Hondor »

jonny_eh wrote: post #112
nostrebored wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, because using Africans as a guinea pig for an unproven economic system isn't colonialist at all.

It's free money for them. If someone wants to experiment on me by giving me free money, have at it.

China used to "donate" underpriced solar panels to Americans. When Americans found out, they said go away! [1] They'd rather pay more than receive government aid from another country. They even have a negative sounding a name for this charity - they call it "dumping" and don't allow other countries to do it to them. So if you're like an American, it's quite possible you won't take their money.

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/17/business/energy-environmen...

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#158

Post by MichaelBurge »

nathanappere wrote: post #156
rayiner wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the western world?

(So all Kenya needs to do is create a colonial empire and exploit other countries ?)

The United States seemed prosperous enough even in its early days. Even though it had to pay taxes and such to Britain.

I guess the best argument along those lines you could make is that the US depended on imported slaves.

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#159

Post by thaumasiotes »

skunkworks wrote: post #139
mwambua wrote: post #124

I'm a Kenyan and I can tell you that this will do more harm than good. NGO money has been distorting our economy for years now... giving people livelihoods they can't sustain, making job opportunities that create no value and making our government vestigial. The poor people that you're supporting elect the same corrupt politicians every year because they have no idea that the government is supposed to be supporting t…

How are poor people supposed to find innovative solutions to their problems and elect governments that create sustainable wealth while they're steeped in desperate poverty? I believe that education is the tip of the spear, but are there any examples where a poor majority has pulled itself up by its bootstraps?

Singapore, South Korea, and Taiwan.

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#160

Post by colinhb »

MichaelBurge wrote: post #158
nathanappere wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(So all Kenya needs to do is create a colonial empire and exploit other countries ?)

The United States seemed prosperous enough even in its early days. Even though it had to pay taxes and such to Britain. I guess the best argument along those lines you could make is that the US depended on imported slaves.

Also: took land and resources from native Americans and developed and exported them.
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