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GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

givedirectly.org

111–120 of 218 posts

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the idea is that a UBI would increase the cost of labor Different UBI proponents (which come from across the left-right spectrum) have different ideas, but none of them that I've heard from has favored UBI for the purpose of increasing the cost of labor generally. Especially on the right, but also usually on the left as well, reducing the disincentive to work inherent in means-tested social benefit programs…

> favored UBI for the purpose of increasing the cost of labor generally But is this still an effect which needs to be considered? I can only see it increasing the cost of labor if people are only willing to work for the luxuries they desire and no longer for the basic living expenses. By what other means would it encourage automation at all? Or is that not an intention or benefit at all?

> By what other means would it encourage automation at all? Or is that not an intention or benefit at all?

Its not really intended to encourage automation, from what I've seen from most proponents; the relation to automation is that automation is happening now, and expected to continue with or without UBI. Proponents of UBI (particularly on the left) see this trend as a significant contributor to declining real wages for most workers, with the gains from the growth of the economy going to a relatively narrow set of elite workers and, even moreso, a much narrower set of capitalists. They see UBI as a means of compensating for the harm most workers experience in this, redistributing some of the net gain so that the aggregate gain that these changes contribute to benefits everyone. Productivity increases don't need to be encouraged, they inherently produce their own reward.

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, we do all the colonial stuff you mentioned (and plenty more you could have mentioned), and then when someone suggests we provide Universal Basic Income in that same region, we suddenly get a "conscience" about it and say no way, it might go wrong? I'd have to say, that sounds a little off, to me.

Right, because using Africans as a guinea pig for an unproven economic system isn't colonialist at all.

It's free money for them. If someone wants to experiment on me by giving me free money, have at it.

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#113
FWIW, this isn't really testing a what "Basic Income" is usually defined as in any area, since the benefit will be given to people in the target area when it starts, and follow them if they leave (and not be given to new residents of the target area that arrive during the trial). And also may include different levels in the target area. So its an experiment about giving free money to individuals, in an arrangement substantially different than a Basic Income.

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also worth considering are countries where a large portion of the economy is based on family members sending remittances back from the United States (or other country). In a sense, they already have a form of basic income for the people who remain at home.

> Also worth considering are countries where a large portion of the economy is based on family members sending remittances back from the United States (or other country). In a sense, they already have a form of basic income for the people who remain at home. Only in that some of the people that remain home have a source of income. But that doesn't make it anything like a "basic income", anymore than the fact that som…

In both cases we're talking about an infusion of cash from the outside, distributed somewhat equally (as opposed to being given to banks and politicians).

This can be useful for answering questions such as:

* Will this discourage entrepreneurship?

* Will this create a culture of dependency?

* Will this boost the economy overall?

* If the economy is boosted, how sustainable is it?

These are the kinds of questions you're not going to be able to answer from a single data point, so it's worth finding similar situations to compare.

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#115
post #103

While I find UBI to be a fascinating idea worthy of consideration, I vehemently disagree with running this experiment in East Africa. The proposal seems to either be blind-to or minimizing the potential for unintended consequences. Decades of trying to alleviate poverty in Africa have taught us, more than anything else, that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Giving food tends to act as “dumping” and wea…

When people in Haiti receive bags of USAID Rice (grown elsewhere) for free, there no longer is a need for Haitian Grown Rice and it hurts local farmers. I'm not sure this translates to direct injections of cash however. I've spent time in East Africa and everyone always asks, what does Africa 'need.' I typically say: money. There are lots of great ideas and lots of enterprising people at all social levels of the regi…

I regularly do low-interest loans to African entrepreneurs via Zidisha -- that's money that's helpful in a concentrated way, vs. bulk money that I'm skeptical won't have negative consequences.

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#116

While I find UBI to be a fascinating idea worthy of consideration, I vehemently disagree with running this experiment in East Africa. The proposal seems to either be blind-to or minimizing the potential for unintended consequences. Decades of trying to alleviate poverty in Africa have taught us, more than anything else, that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Giving food tends to act as “dumping” and wea…

There is quite a bit of anger and little fact in this comment. GiveDirectly has been running UBI programs in East Africa for years now. They have an all-star cast of economists examining their performance. Their pilot programs were very successful, which is why they are scaling out further. East Africa, and Kenya in particular, was carefully chosen for two reasons. First, Kenya has a mobile phone network that makes i…

You seem to know a lot of the detail. How are you affiliated with GiveDirectly?

Also, this post also has little fact when the emotive aspects of it contain phrases like "all star cast", "very successful", "political football", "benefits so great", "would be a shame."

Where's the facts?

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, because using Africans as a guinea pig for an unproven economic system isn't colonialist at all.

It's free money for them. If someone wants to experiment on me by giving me free money, have at it.

Said the future slave.

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#119
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is quite a bit of anger and little fact in this comment. GiveDirectly has been running UBI programs in East Africa for years now. They have an all-star cast of economists examining their performance. Their pilot programs were very successful, which is why they are scaling out further. East Africa, and Kenya in particular, was carefully chosen for two reasons. First, Kenya has a mobile phone network that makes i…

You seem to know a lot of the detail. How are you affiliated with GiveDirectly? Also, this post also has little fact when the emotive aspects of it contain phrases like "all star cast", "very successful", "political football", "benefits so great", "would be a shame." Where's the facts?

I'm not the GP, but I have a similar impression that GiveDirectly has really strong evidence supporting it.

GiveWell -- a separate organization that does in depth analysis of giving opportunities -- has a detailed write up on them: http://www.givewell.org/International/top-charities/give-dir... GiveWell recommends GiveDirectly as one of their top charities.

GiveDirectly's intervention has been tested by multiple randomized controlled trial, including a large-scale one. (See the GiveWell write up for details.) In general, the case of them seems much stronger than most charitable interventions.

(I have no affiliation with GiveDirectly, though I'm close friends with many GiveWell staff.)

Re: GiveDirectly Planning to Give $30M in Basic Income to East Africa

#120
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you are describing is a mercantilist theory of development.[1] Giving people free things usually helps them; what doesn't help them is the way that the 'gifts' are chosen, whom the 'aid' is given to, and how the poor are treated.[2] The gifts are usually chosen based on which companies and unions the 'giving' country wants to promote and help, instead of what the poor need. The 'aid' is often given to tyrants, a…

I don't see how the parent comment is describing mercantilist development. My understanding is that mercantilist development implies that the subservient state is developed as an income source for the dominant state. Although traditional development may not be effective, it surely isn't meant to extract resources.

Much of traditional development really really is meant to extract resources in one way or another.

Just one example. http://www.thenation.com/article/usaid-helping-haiti-recover...

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