I wrote a small piece on planned death • Hacker News Board

Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#41

Post by BatFastard » Wed, May 04, 2016, 12:57 PM UTC

wbillingsley wrote: post #30

lostlogin wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is strange. Allowing the state to take a life but not allowing the individual the same right over their own life.

Limiting the options to "palliative care" instead of active euthanasia is partly a bulwark against there ever being social-pressure-to-die. And given many societies aren't very good at identifying or dealing with elder abuse as it is, it seems a reasonable bulwark to have.

How about the incredible social-pressure-to-live!, not only social pressure but legal pressure. In my father's last few weeks of life I would see him wake up each day asking "why am I still here". Because you have NO choice.

Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#42

Post by mbrutsch » Wed, May 04, 2016, 12:58 PM UTC

My mother had a DNR. She contracted meningitis, and died. She was resuscitated, suffered severe brain damage, and lived another 2 years as a semi-vegetable before dying in her sleep after choking on her own vomit.

If I believed in such things, I would hope my stepfather is in Hell.

edited for spelling

Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#43

Post by brianwawok » Wed, May 04, 2016, 1:01 PM UTC

marincounty wrote: post #25

teekert wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you let that pain even take over, why not gently increase Morphine as you go? That is how it's done here in the Netherlands and, I guess also in Canada now. A friend of mine (then 24) went home to die even though doctors still wanted to treat him. But as everyone else he didn't want to die alone, in a hospital. He went home, had a cigarette, stared over the sea, drank a beer with his soccer mates. Within 2…

My father died of liver cancer. He was under the care of Hospice. They gave my father enough drugs (Morphine, benzodiazepines, ect.) in the beginning. He lived two months pretty happy. He liked the effects of the drugs. My father was a pretty hardcore drinker, but very functional throughout his life. He was also very conservative, and would never take an drug that wasen't legal. Growing up, every once in awhile, he w…

Side note - good example of why if you have kids get all the will stuff taken care of before you get sick. Dying sucks enough to not mix kids fighting for your stuff in it.

Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#44

Post by mafribe » Wed, May 04, 2016, 1:17 PM UTC

loup-vaillant wrote: post #29

UweSchmidt wrote: post #19

My take: all the recent changes in western society could be tagged with "Individualism". Fundamental changes regarding lifestyle, relationships and sexuality were enabled by the demise of collectivist ideologies like communism and national socialism which had clear ideas how humans should live, and the wealth and flexibility of modern economies, which enable the individual to exist without any dependencies except a j…

> collectivist ideologies like communism and national socialism I sense a conflation between communism and USSR dictatorship. I'm not sure this is warranted. (Then again, China is supposedly lead by a "communist party".) More generally, are you suggesting that collectivist ideologies necessarily leads to totalitarianism? > which enable the individual to exist without any dependencies except a job. That last exception…

   conflation between communism and USSR
   dictatorship.

It's a simplification, but historically warranted, in the sense that the USSR was created explicitly with the end-goal of leading to a communist society as described by Marx/Engels in the "Communist Manifesto", i.e., the ideal society where the "contradictions of capitalism" have disappeared. Moreover, the 10 points that the "Communist Manifesto" says (Chapter II. Proletarians and Communists) are required to bring about communism were all carried out in the Soviet Union and its satellites (and brought about not communism, but Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, not to mention an inability to feed the population).

If you want to be more precise in your terminology, I suggest the following distinctions:

Marxism is a theory. Typically 3 things are theorised. (1) How capitalism (re)produced inequality. (2) A theory of revolution as intrinsic part of the transition from contemporary society to communism via socialism. (3) A theory of post-revolutionary society.

Socialism. This describes post-revolutionary, but pre-communist societies, in particular USSR and its satellites.

Communism. The ideal society, post-revolution, where the "contradictions of capitalism" have disappeared.

Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#45

Post by MacsHeadroom » Wed, May 04, 2016, 1:19 PM UTC

mbrutsch wrote: post #42

My mother had a DNR. She contracted meningitis, and died. She was resuscitated, suffered severe brain damage, and lived another 2 years as a semi-vegetable before dying in her sleep after choking on her own vomit. If I believed in such things, I would hope my stepfather is in Hell. edited for spelling

This is very sad.

If you're reading this and don't have a "Living Will," know that this is exactly the sort of thing they are for.

Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#46

Post by alanwatts » Wed, May 04, 2016, 1:22 PM UTC

crag wrote: post #40

notjosh wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a cancer survivor, I feel so conflicted about this. On one hand, I can completely understand where you're coming from. But on the other hand, I think seeing things in such black and white terms is pretty shortsighted. When there's a terminal prognosis, many/most doctors will offer an array of treatments and therapies to help manage symptoms without trying to make you feel worse. There are several middle-grounds th…

//As a cancer survivor, I feel so conflicted about this. I don't. I'm one of those that survived AIDS (had cancer (KS), CMV, etc - in other words - the whole bad of horrors). I got lucky, good timing, I held out long enough. But many didn't. And I saw what hanging on does to people. It's stunning to see a guy who 6 months ago weighed 210lbs of muscle and now he was [trying] standing before me; 110lbs who couldn't spe…

>I never understood why our society expects people to fight the good fight.

One reason I would guess is the massive fortune that is made off pharmaceutical sales.

If someone takes their life early, that is potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars saved by the family that otherwise would have went to big pharma.

Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#47

Post by loup-vaillant » Wed, May 04, 2016, 1:27 PM UTC

UweSchmidt wrote: post #35

loup-vaillant wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> collectivist ideologies like communism and national socialism I sense a conflation between communism and USSR dictatorship. I'm not sure this is warranted. (Then again, China is supposedly lead by a "communist party".) More generally, are you suggesting that collectivist ideologies necessarily leads to totalitarianism? > which enable the individual to exist without any dependencies except a job. That last exception…

I didn't mean to conflate things; imagine a benevolent communist leadership, or compassionate national socialism: you would still be under a massive ideologically influence. They might not burn your book, but expect massive resistance to anything that does not conform to the collectivist mainstream. To any human from before WW2 we are all crazy weirdos and live a life of an eccentric dreamer.

Possibly. But we do have our own conformism too. We do live under our own ideology.

There is no escaping ideology: we humans have values that go beyond our own self anyway. Good luck finding the "right" (whatever that means) ideology, though.

Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#48

Post by [deleted] » Wed, May 04, 2016, 1:29 PM UTC

crag wrote: post #40

notjosh wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a cancer survivor, I feel so conflicted about this. On one hand, I can completely understand where you're coming from. But on the other hand, I think seeing things in such black and white terms is pretty shortsighted. When there's a terminal prognosis, many/most doctors will offer an array of treatments and therapies to help manage symptoms without trying to make you feel worse. There are several middle-grounds th…

//As a cancer survivor, I feel so conflicted about this. I don't. I'm one of those that survived AIDS (had cancer (KS), CMV, etc - in other words - the whole bad of horrors). I got lucky, good timing, I held out long enough. But many didn't. And I saw what hanging on does to people. It's stunning to see a guy who 6 months ago weighed 210lbs of muscle and now he was [trying] standing before me; 110lbs who couldn't spe…

[deleted]

Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#49

Post by crag » Wed, May 04, 2016, 1:30 PM UTC

alanwatts wrote: post #46

crag wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

//As a cancer survivor, I feel so conflicted about this. I don't. I'm one of those that survived AIDS (had cancer (KS), CMV, etc - in other words - the whole bad of horrors). I got lucky, good timing, I held out long enough. But many didn't. And I saw what hanging on does to people. It's stunning to see a guy who 6 months ago weighed 210lbs of muscle and now he was [trying] standing before me; 110lbs who couldn't spe…

>I never understood why our society expects people to fight the good fight. One reason I would guess is the massive fortune that is made off pharmaceutical sales. If someone takes their life early, that is potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars saved by the family that otherwise would have went to big pharma.

Nahh... that's probably part of it. But in many cases, it's the family insisting that you "drag it out".

I remember at NY Hospital, this guy (in the next room) was VERY sick (AIDS) - he was at end of life. Had 105+ fever they could not get down. He was laying on a bed of ice, and the nurse was pouring ice water over him - all at the insistence of his sister.

I remember thinking how could she torture her brother so much? I know she loved him. And it was a vain attempt too save his life. He wasn't conscious though most of it, but I think he would've preferred to die in peace and quiet rather then laying on a bed of ice.

He lasted till the morning. What a way to go.

That's why Living Wills and Medical Directives are so important.

Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#50

Post by loup-vaillant » Wed, May 04, 2016, 1:38 PM UTC

mafribe wrote: post #44

loup-vaillant wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> collectivist ideologies like communism and national socialism I sense a conflation between communism and USSR dictatorship. I'm not sure this is warranted. (Then again, China is supposedly lead by a "communist party".) More generally, are you suggesting that collectivist ideologies necessarily leads to totalitarianism? > which enable the individual to exist without any dependencies except a job. That last exception…

conflation between communism and USSR dictatorship. It's a simplification, but historically warranted, in the sense that the USSR was created explicitly with the end-goal of leading to a communist society as described by Marx/Engels in the "Communist Manifesto", i.e., the ideal society where the "contradictions of capitalism" have disappeared. Moreover, the 10 points that the "Communist Manifesto" says (Chapter II. P…

> the USSR was created explicitly with the end-goal of leading to a communist society […]

I'm not sure that's true. Granted, it was ostensibly, outwardly created for that purpose. But I'm not sure that was the actual intent of those who lead that charge.

My History is quite dusty, so I wonder what exactly brought about the dictatorships you mentioned. Besides, it wouldn't be the first time a revolution lead to (near) absolutism. The French revolution for instance lead to Napoleon. Given this, I wonder how representative governments were able to emerge at all. It doesn't make me very optimistic about the possibility for democracy either. (Yeah, for various reasons, representative governments are hardly democratic: elected leaders are very poor proxies for the will of the people.)