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I wrote a small piece on planned death

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Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#31

Post by loganmhb »

panorama wrote: post #6

I can't fathom how it must feel to live each day while a cancer grows inside of me. Pieter is definitely a man of much greater fortitude than I. I also can't get over the fact that 1 in 2 people develop cancer in their lifetimes. One would think curing cancer ought to be amongst humanity's greatest concerted challenges.

> One would think curing cancer ought to be amongst humanity's greatest concerted challenges.

One of the reasons "curing cancer" is so difficult is that cancer itself is not really one disease but many, with diverse causes and treatments. What works for one kind cancer doesn't work for another, so some kinds are fully curable and others unstoppable, with of course many in between. New research tends to chip away at variations of the disease without being able to cure it wholesale. If you're interested in the recent history of cancer and cancer medicine, the book "The Emperor of All Maladies" is a fascinating treatment of the subject.

Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#33

Post by lgieron »

UweSchmidt wrote: post #19

My take: all the recent changes in western society could be tagged with "Individualism". Fundamental changes regarding lifestyle, relationships and sexuality were enabled by the demise of collectivist ideologies like communism and national socialism which had clear ideas how humans should live, and the wealth and flexibility of modern economies, which enable the individual to exist without any dependencies except a j…

> My take: all the recent changes in western society could be tagged with "Individualism". Fundamental changes regarding lifestyle, relationships and sexuality were enabled by the demise of collectivist ideologies like communism and national socialism which had clear ideas how humans should live, and the wealth and flexibility of modern economies, which enable the individual to exist without any dependencies except a job.

I don't know the details on nazis (national socialists), but what you're describing was actually was a goal communism - to produce totally atomized units which for everything depend only on the state (that included a totally dystopian dissasembling of families, ex. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavlik_Morozov)

Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#34

Post by pieter_mj »

efdee wrote: post #27
pieter_mj wrote: post #12

I recently witnessed my uncle's euthanasia. There's a few things to consider and discuss with your leifarts (as the euthanasia assisting doctor is called in Belgium) : - death is instantanious (within 15-30 seconds of administration of penthotal) - often a sedative is given. Dormicum can lead to loud snoring so you should discuss with your doctor necessity/alternative

"lijfarts" (body doctor) actually ;-)

no ;-) leif.be

Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#35

Post by UweSchmidt »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #29
UweSchmidt wrote: post #19

My take: all the recent changes in western society could be tagged with "Individualism". Fundamental changes regarding lifestyle, relationships and sexuality were enabled by the demise of collectivist ideologies like communism and national socialism which had clear ideas how humans should live, and the wealth and flexibility of modern economies, which enable the individual to exist without any dependencies except a j…

> collectivist ideologies like communism and national socialism I sense a conflation between communism and USSR dictatorship. I'm not sure this is warranted. (Then again, China is supposedly lead by a "communist party".) More generally, are you suggesting that collectivist ideologies necessarily leads to totalitarianism? > which enable the individual to exist without any dependencies except a job. That last exception…

I didn't mean to conflate things; imagine a benevolent communist leadership, or compassionate national socialism: you would still be under a massive ideologically influence. They might not burn your book, but expect massive resistance to anything that does not conform to the collectivist mainstream. To any human from before WW2 we are all crazy weirdos and live a life of an eccentric dreamer.

Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#36

Post by smhg »

efdee wrote: post #27
pieter_mj wrote: post #12

I recently witnessed my uncle's euthanasia. There's a few things to consider and discuss with your leifarts (as the euthanasia assisting doctor is called in Belgium) : - death is instantanious (within 15-30 seconds of administration of penthotal) - often a sedative is given. Dormicum can lead to loud snoring so you should discuss with your doctor necessity/alternative

"lijfarts" (body doctor) actually ;-)

No, actually, it is LEIFarts. Because the euthanasia forum is called LEIF (Life Ending Information Forum).

Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#37

Post by bcook »

marincounty wrote: post #25
teekert wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you let that pain even take over, why not gently increase Morphine as you go? That is how it's done here in the Netherlands and, I guess also in Canada now. A friend of mine (then 24) went home to die even though doctors still wanted to treat him. But as everyone else he didn't want to die alone, in a hospital. He went home, had a cigarette, stared over the sea, drank a beer with his soccer mates. Within 2…

My father died of liver cancer. He was under the care of Hospice. They gave my father enough drugs (Morphine, benzodiazepines, ect.) in the beginning. He lived two months pretty happy. He liked the effects of the drugs. My father was a pretty hardcore drinker, but very functional throughout his life. He was also very conservative, and would never take an drug that wasen't legal. Growing up, every once in awhile, he w…

Thanks for sharing that, in all it's gritty detail.

Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#38

Post by J-dawg »

UweSchmidt wrote: post #19

My take: all the recent changes in western society could be tagged with "Individualism". Fundamental changes regarding lifestyle, relationships and sexuality were enabled by the demise of collectivist ideologies like communism and national socialism which had clear ideas how humans should live, and the wealth and flexibility of modern economies, which enable the individual to exist without any dependencies except a j…

Could you elaborate on the radical and crazy changes ahead?

Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#39

Post by MacsHeadroom »

DasIch wrote: post #26
bcook wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all cry at a funeral... that is not what the family or loved ones remember. They remember the speakers, the speeches that offer something useful to explain the occasion. No disrespect to the parent poster (or author) but... acknowledging that something that is obviously sad is actually sad is not a very useful observation.

Why would the amount of time we consciously remember something, and this alone, define it's value?

Can you suggest a more interesting definition of value than "lasting impact on conscious experience"?

Re: I wrote a small piece on planned death

#40

Post by crag »

notjosh wrote: post #13
buro9 wrote: post #3

I've chatted with friends about my desires should I get a cancer that is more likely to kill and not be treatable, to refuse chemo, and to live what remains of my life qualitatively rather than quantitatively. I would plan how best to handle my death, and aim to enjoy every moment before a quick and severe pain takes over and does the job. Some have said this is a selfish viewpoint, that I should stay around longer f…

As a cancer survivor, I feel so conflicted about this. On one hand, I can completely understand where you're coming from. But on the other hand, I think seeing things in such black and white terms is pretty shortsighted. When there's a terminal prognosis, many/most doctors will offer an array of treatments and therapies to help manage symptoms without trying to make you feel worse. There are several middle-grounds th…

//As a cancer survivor, I feel so conflicted about this.

I don't. I'm one of those that survived AIDS (had cancer (KS), CMV, etc - in other words - the whole bad of horrors).

I got lucky, good timing, I held out long enough. But many didn't. And I saw what hanging on does to people. It's stunning to see a guy who 6 months ago weighed 210lbs of muscle and now he was [trying] standing before me; 110lbs who couldn't spend more then 10 mins out of the toilet.

I think, ending your own life on your own terms is possibly the bravest thing you can do. It's not easy to take your own life.

For years, I had a special stash of drugs in a place I could get to even if I lost my eye sight (I almost did). And I set a limit - if my eyes went I would go. I never understood why our society expects people to fight the good fight. You should be able to make that decision yourself.

Right now, you have to beg for help, or go into hospice and wait it out. Usually very high on morphine and barely able to get out of bed. Awful.

You are right, end of life care is terrible in the US. Just terrible. We need to start teaching people that death is nothing to fear. And sometimes, it's a better choice.

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