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TV’s Dwindling Middle Class

nytimes.com

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Re: TV’s Dwindling Middle Class

#121

Post by pbhjpbhj »

coldtea wrote: post #100
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you from the UK, would you call David Beckham (say) Upper Class? He's as wealthy as they come but pretty clearly working class IMO.

That's because the British think of class as some BS blue-blooded royal thing. Beckham is by no means "working class" -- though he might have been born as such. He is just not royalty and hadn't grown up from families owing castles and being members in the house of lords.

It's not snobbery, no one is looking down [well few are] on Beckham saying "oh he's only working class". Football is a working class game, it's players are primarily working class; that's a great source of pride for many.

I'm (lower) middle class, earn less than a lot of working class people; there are different cultural circles that follow different lines to financial worth. That's how the class system is seen here.

Being royalty wouldn't make him any better, just different, probably make him far worse in many people's eyes but if he were royal he'd be part of the peerage whether he lived in a council flat or a palace.

Re: TV’s Dwindling Middle Class

#122

Post by coldtea »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #121
coldtea wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because the British think of class as some BS blue-blooded royal thing. Beckham is by no means "working class" -- though he might have been born as such. He is just not royalty and hadn't grown up from families owing castles and being members in the house of lords.

It's not snobbery, no one is looking down [well few are] on Beckham saying "oh he's only working class". Football is a working class game, it's players are primarily working class; that's a great source of pride for many. I'm (lower) middle class, earn less than a lot of working class people; there are different cultural circles that follow different lines to financial worth. That's how the class system is seen here.…

>It's not snobbery, no one is looking down [well few are] on Beckham saying "oh he's only working class"

On Beckham no. On working class people but not Beckham-rich, many.

I've had some experience with BBC people.

All the technicians and lower level staff were working class.

All the journalists were public school people (in UK, "public school" actually means: expensive prestigious school).

They didn't seem to have any social connection, didn't even eat all together at the same table at the end of work -- each group had their own table. And I'm not talking famous journalists and tv-stars snubbing mere mortals: it was just actual run of the mill reporters and journalists.

You don't get this behavior in where I come from.

I was also surprised to find out that from Monty Python to Mr. Bean (R.A), and Hugh Laurie, Fry, etc, almost all famous TV comedians (at least up to the 90s) in Britain were public school people -- and all of these were specifically Cambridge and Oxford. Which shows what it took to be on TV back in the day. You don't get that in the US either.

Re: TV’s Dwindling Middle Class

#123

Post by RyanMcGreal »

CocaKoala wrote: post #88
bobbyi_settv wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The claim of the article is that we never see regular people with ordinary jobs except for "police precincts, crime-and-forensics teams and legal-medical-Beltway dramas". The counterexamples you came up with are shows where the characters are police, politicians and drug dealers, and you had to reach back to a show that has been off the air for 8 years to even find those. Doesn't that kind of demonstrate the article'…

An obvious counterexample is the sitcom "How I Met Your Mother", which featured an environmental lawyer, an architect (turned college professor in later seasons), a teacher, and a news reporter.

The characters in Friends nominally had jobs too (chef, fashion manager, masseuse, archaeologist, accountant, actor), but the show centred around them hanging out, either in their improbably large apartments or at the coffee shop. In HIMYM, the apartments are still improbably large, the coffee shop has been recast as a bar, and the show still centres around the characters hanging out with only the occasional plot reference to the fact that they do things for a living.

Re: TV’s Dwindling Middle Class

#124

Post by rst »

bobbyi_settv wrote: post #78
roymurdock wrote: post #33

“Cheers,” which ran for 11 seasons on NBC, starting in 1982, was the first great hangout show: neutralizing the depiction of class and removing the pressures of work. Life is hard enough, “Cheers” said; let’s just make TV. Ever since, television started taking it easier on us. Bill Clinton was in the White House, and the economy had improved. On “Seinfeld,” “Living Single,” “Friends,” “Ellen,” “It’s Like, You Know,”…

The claim of the article is that we never see regular people with ordinary jobs except for "police precincts, crime-and-forensics teams and legal-medical-Beltway dramas". The counterexamples you came up with are shows where the characters are police, politicians and drug dealers, and you had to reach back to a show that has been off the air for 8 years to even find those. Doesn't that kind of demonstrate the article'…

Two Broke Girls would have been a better example, but there isn't all that much like it. (Then again, some of this reflects how much scripted shows of all kinds are getting pushed aside by reality shows of one kind or another...)

Re: TV’s Dwindling Middle Class

#125

Post by Pxtl »

nommm-nommm wrote: post #118
Pxtl wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, but one of the main characters in BBT, the token non-nerd, works as a waitress and her lack of funds are a continuing plot-point of the show.

The problem is her lack of funds seems really fake though. She doesn't really seem to go through the type of real financial hardship I can identify with, it just seems haphazardly thrown in once in a while for laughs.

> it just seems haphazardly thrown in once in a while for laughs.

This also applies to the science and the social issues in BBT. It's not exactly a very heavy show.

Re: TV’s Dwindling Middle Class

#126

Post by pbh101 »

michaelt wrote: post #46
ap22213 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you give some examples? I've seen blue collar workers who excel, and I've seen white collar workers who don't. I haven't noticed any correlation either way.

"orthogonal" means "at right angles" - or "statistically independent" Perhaps what pbh101 means is whether you're good at your job or not is unrelated to whether you're blue-collared or not. With that interpretation, you and he are in agreement.

>Perhaps what pbh101 means is whether you're good at your job or not is unrelated to whether you're blue-collared or not.

Yep :)

Re: TV’s Dwindling Middle Class

#127

Post by icebraining »

jonnathanson wrote: post #113
untog wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it fell into the TV show trap of being successful and having your actors be in demand, and taking time off from the show or leaving it altogether. They likely should have ended it when Steve Carrell left.

This. The Office went through all of its kooky manager plotlines because Steve Carell's career trajectory outpaced the show's initial popularity. The second he got too big for the show, everyone knew it, and much ink was spilled in the writers' room trying to anticipate and/or compensate for his eventual departure. Jim was given some upward mobility because he's the protagonist, and the audience was rooting for him (…

The UK version also only has 14 episodes in total (vs 201 in the US). Not that much time to create the feeling of being stuck.

Re: TV’s Dwindling Middle Class

#128

Post by jonnathanson »

icebraining wrote: post #127
jonnathanson wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. The Office went through all of its kooky manager plotlines because Steve Carell's career trajectory outpaced the show's initial popularity. The second he got too big for the show, everyone knew it, and much ink was spilled in the writers' room trying to anticipate and/or compensate for his eventual departure. Jim was given some upward mobility because he's the protagonist, and the audience was rooting for him (…

The UK version also only has 14 episodes in total (vs 201 in the US). Not that much time to create the feeling of being stuck.

True, but the UK show goes to great lengths to make a point of its protagonists' hopelessness. The Christmas special capping Season 2 pretty explicitly implies: "Just in case you were wondering, nobody wins."

Re: TV’s Dwindling Middle Class

#129

Post by pbh101 »

wycx wrote: post #35
pbh101 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not trying to be too snarky here, but blue-collaredness and excelling at one's job are quite orthogonal in my head.

How would you classify a tool-and-die maker?

I am not familiar first-hand with the occupation, though after a quick scan of Wikipedia it sounds blue-collar to me.

Not sure how this relates to my original comment. For clarity, do see my clarification under sibling comment at [1].

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11623522

Re: TV’s Dwindling Middle Class

#130

Post by et2o »

coldtea wrote: post #98
petra wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it simple ? most working class jobs are boring. But law, police, medicine, a tv show(rock 30), or just changing jobs and random situation puts you in a lot of variety and that makes comedy easier. And the expectations of comedy today are far bigger than the 80's. So something had to give.

> Isn't it simple ? most working class jobs are boring. That wasn't a problem in the past. Besides, nothing more boring than being a regular cop, lawyer, doctor etc. It's the treatment that makes it look exciting, not the patrolling around for 8 hours and eating doughnuts reality of being a cop. And you wouldn't believe how tedious being a doctor is, either in a private practice or at a hospital. Nothing like ER or H…

Tedious but mostly not boring.

Tedious for reasons other than why it makes good TV.

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