Jean Valjean?
Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry
171–180 of 406 posts
Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry
#172It's a little hard to understand how this ruling won't cause a certain degree of chaos. Can any hungry, homeless person now steal food from any store in Italy without repercussion? Certainly as a matter of compassion, this ruling can be argued as being reasonable, but how can it work as a practical matter?
It could work without causing chaos. We already accept that some special circumstances can make you innocent of a crime (e.g. killing in self-defence). But if you stab someone in self-defence you can still expect to be arrested and possibly put on trial. The onus is on you to prove you did it in self-defence. Surely this could be treated the same? It doesn't mean that stealing food has been decriminalised. You'll sti…
IANAL, but I thought that the onus was on the prosecution to prove you were guilty as charged, i.e. didn't stab them in self-defence (by proving you stabbed for some other reason, presumably). Similarly, the prosecution would have to prove you weren't truly desperate if up before the magistrates for stealing food.
It might be different in Italy, though.
Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry
#173Earlier quoted context omitted.
People are homeless and go hungry in all countries. This isn't something that only happens in Italy. It's a worldwide issue.
Good point. On a related note, I personally cannot imagine a world where any theft is justified. Personal property rights are key in maintaining a functioning free market economy. This ruling by the court flies in the face of those rights.
I understand your opinion. I don't feel that taking from the person running the store is really the right option, but I believe it is better than allowing the person going hungry to starve. It's very upsetting to me that in a time of such great global wealth, we still can't find a way to feed the poor.
I'm reminded of the quote by Eisenhower: "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed."
Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry
#174Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry
#175"How noble the law, in its majestic equality, that both the rich and poor are equally prohibited from peeing in the streets, sleeping under bridges, and stealing bread!" -- Anatole France
Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry
#176Earlier quoted context omitted.
It could work without causing chaos. We already accept that some special circumstances can make you innocent of a crime (e.g. killing in self-defence). But if you stab someone in self-defence you can still expect to be arrested and possibly put on trial. The onus is on you to prove you did it in self-defence. Surely this could be treated the same? It doesn't mean that stealing food has been decriminalised. You'll sti…
>Surely this could be treated the same? It doesn't mean that stealing food has been decriminalised. You'll still be arrested if caught, and you have to prove you were truly desperate. But what a collosal waste of resources. What does a trial cost the state? It would probably be cheaper to just... feed the hungry people.
I agree. I was just making the point that pardoning theft under exceptional circumstances would not necessarily lead to chaos, and could work with the existing legal system.
Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry
#177Earlier quoted context omitted.
Beggars ask for help in the streets, but I personally can't help each and every one of them. You may be sympathetic, but how is the homeless man supposed to find you when he needs your help?
In theory that is the whole point of taxpayer funded support programs... we can't all be there, but we do all pay taxes for the specific purpose of having a better society (including things like food banks, soup kitchens, etc for people in need).
Food banks and soup kitchens are predominantly provided by charities and religions. Not by tax payers. I would encourage you to look up what welfare is available for people like this in your local area to ascertain how much {if any] is tax payer funded.
Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry
#178Earlier quoted context omitted.
Gleaning was more about allowing the poor to have inefficient access to the raw materials that with hard work could be made into food. Taking prepared food from a merchant would have still been a crime. For example "People do not despise a thief if he steals to satisfy his appetite when he is hungry, but if he is caught, he will pay esevenfold; he will give all the goods of his house."
I'm not sure that the ancient Israelites had many places you could go get "prepared food," but the Bible also says you should leave behind grapes for the poor which clearly do not need preparation. e: Previously I claimed that olives don't need preparation which is false. Sorry.
Most olive varieties are extremely bitter and need to be cured before they're considered edible. However, the bitterness is attributed to oleuropein, which people take in high doses without harm as olive leaf extract, so it seems likely that raw olives are not dangerous. And if you're willing to eat raw olives that's good evidence that you really are starving.
Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry
#179I'm apparently in the minority, but, after reading the article, I still maintain that there is never a reason to steal from your fellow man. The potential for abuse due to hunger being subjective notwithstanding, there are social programs in place to accommodate the needy. Do they not have these programs in Italy? I am a very compassionate, empathetic (to a fault) person, but I just don't see the justification for th…
I bet you've been pretty privileged in grand scheme of things, university, regular jobs, maybe the lowest point has been backpacking etc... Parent have at least one car, yawn yawn yawn.. No one is stealing from you, they are stealing from a supermarket. Privileged people always seem to think in black and white, theft is theft never an excuse blah blah, quite often making the cliche mistake of associating morality wit…
Discursive ad hominem, yawn. Discuss the implications of theft being okay if you are hungry, not the background of the person who suggested they disagree with that notion.
Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry
#180May be the true reason of ruling is too many people, such as refuges, preferring live in jail. All they have to do is commit a petty crime occasionally.
This is why it's so important for your prison system to have a strong culture of sexual abuse. It allows the society to pretend they have a liberal justice system, while in reality all crimes are punished by rape.