Live data from Hacker News

Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

bbc.com

41–50 of 406 posts

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#41
post #11

By this logic, money theft is 'not a crime' if poor.

Being poor shouldn't mean you can't get basic life-sustaining things like food, shelter, clothing. That's why being poor is not an excuse for stealing but being hungry is.

Considering Italy is a welfare-style state, this just opens up cannoli snatching and such instead of going to whatever socialized or charitable shelters and services. Unhealthy high sugar and high caffeine foods will be in demand by snatchers.

Ironically, this is going to hurt the working poor the most who work at low margin restaurants, retail shops, etc as people just grab whatever they want because there is no more law protecting them. It also seems like a good way to get into beatings or even knife fights as small business owners and workers get fed up with thieves and now have an apathetic police that won't protect them. Those in high volume areas like food stands at train stations will feel the brunt of this, meanwhile I suppose the kinds of restaurants an Italian judge dines at won't even notice. If Italy wants to expand its welfare state benefits, then it should do that through its legislature via taxation, not via judiciary decree attacking its poorest workers. If the Italian poor can't find these socialized benefits then someone needs to ask by the welfare state is so inefficient and find a way to fix that.

More than likely the unintended consequences will be chasing out 'poor looking' people from various shops as retailers fear legal theft. Now the poorest won't be able to buy things they need and they won't have the resources to fight this discrimination via a lawsuit. On top of that, there's no Hollywood style theft where you just steal bread cooling itself on the window sill. It will involve breaking and entering, fights with the shop owner, collateral damage (a child trampled during a chase), tempers leading to weapons use, incentivizing snatching expensive food to be sold on the black market, and other issues.

Its obvious no one thought this through. What if a hungry person decided to smash up a €5,000 vending machine to get a sandwich or a coffee? Does the Italian government pay for the repairs? I imagine it won't. This is a bad ruling for Italian small business.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#44
It definitely makes a nice headline, it might work in this specific case. Damn it might even work in an utopian world where everyone is absolutely honest and has high moral standards.

But applied widely in real world, it's just won't work. There are too many people who would exploit such a system and cause chaos.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#45
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being poor shouldn't mean you can't get basic life-sustaining things like food, shelter, clothing. That's why being poor is not an excuse for stealing but being hungry is.

Agreed, I'm all for basic income, and social safety nets. But stealing them, isn't the right answer either. The burden should be on the state to provide those necessities, not the local business owners.

So do you think, then, that the homeless should forego food until the state steps in out a principled concern for the free market?

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#46
post #30

It's a little hard to understand how this ruling won't cause a certain degree of chaos. Can any hungry, homeless person now steal food from any store in Italy without repercussion? Certainly as a matter of compassion, this ruling can be argued as being reasonable, but how can it work as a practical matter?

Also, surely the store from which he stole is still victimized by the theft. Is every supermarket now de facto required to set up small food pantries for the poor to protect themselves from theft?

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#48
post #34

Reminds me of how trying to escape from prison is not illegal in certain countries.

Can you say in which countries?

In Belgium it isn't. What is often the case, though, is that you commit other crimes while escaping prison (stealing government property, violence or threats on guards, etc.) for which you're accountable.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#49
post #34

Reminds me of how trying to escape from prison is not illegal in certain countries.

Can you say in which countries?

Civilized countries. Germany, for example.

The law argues that one cannot punish a person for loving freedom, even though the same law has put him behind bars.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#50

>In 2015, Mr Ostriakov was convicted of theft and sentenced to six months in jail and a €100 fine. The first judge clearly messed up. A suspended sentence would have been ideal in this case.

6 months in jail means free food for 6 months!
Post reply on HN