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Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

bbc.com

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Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#131

Post by c0nducktr »

CajunAlexTrebec wrote: post #110
akrigline wrote: post #90

The way the judges worded this decision makes it a lot less of a slippery slope. This was only accepted because it was an "Immediate and essential need for nourishment." I expect that if more people started stealing, they'd be put through a court process to prove that they were in this condition. What this doesn't do is fix the problem though, it just recognizes a symptom. Why are these people forced to resort to ste…

Italy is falling apart, financially speaking. The people of Italy are suffering as a result. Nearly 50% of bank loans are non-performing (in default). The EBC is conducting a stealth bailout via Target2. Just look at the major Italian bank stocks. They are trading at deep, deep discounts. Maybe the market knows something the EBC and others don't want to admit?

People are homeless and go hungry in all countries. This isn't something that only happens in Italy. It's a worldwide issue.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#132

Post by kome »

DanBC wrote: post #118
kome wrote: post #84

In other news, sky is blue and water is wet. From the Italian criminal code: Criminal Code, article 54 – State of necessity: “A person is not punishable for having committed an act that he was forced to do in order to save himself or others from an existing risk of severe harm, a risk not voluntarily caused by him, nor otherwise avoidable, always provided that the act is proportional to the risk”.

But this is from the BBC, and in Britain we routinely prosecute (sometimes privately) people who shoplift food. There are cases of homeless people who stole a pint of milk from a doorstep, and who left some money, being prosecuted for theft.

Oh that's why anglophone media is so thrilled.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#133

Post by stronglikedan »

I'm apparently in the minority, but, after reading the article, I still maintain that there is never a reason to steal from your fellow man. The potential for abuse due to hunger being subjective notwithstanding, there are social programs in place to accommodate the needy. Do they not have these programs in Italy? I am a very compassionate, empathetic (to a fault) person, but I just don't see the justification for the theft. Ask me for help, and I'm there, but please don't steal from me and think that it's okay. I am, however, open to enlightenment.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#134

Post by omegaham »

gedrap wrote: post #100
rootlocus wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering the massive amounts of food that gets thrown away even before the expiration date, I'm amazed this is even an issue. There was an entire episode of "Last Week Tonight" on this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8xwLWb0lLY

Slightly related, throwing food away and the expiration date is a tricky thing. My dad works at grocery store and initially, they were allowed to bring the food home once it expires for a symbolic cost (10% of the price or something). Soon after that, the employees started to hide food so that they can take it home almost for free. So it didn't last long.

Same thing happens at restaurants. If a restaurant gives away excess food to employees at the end of the night, you're guaranteeing that employees will then cook excess food to take home a shitload.

As the saying goes, "This is why we can't have nice things."

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#135

Post by megalodon »

scurvy wrote: post #93

Europeans (DHH for example) constantly brag about what great social safety nets the European countries provide for their people, and that US style charities are a waste. Implying charity money should be given to the government as tax money and let the state do their work instead. Italy has just admitted that it can't take care of its citizens' basic needs. I'm not saying it's time to eat crow, but I am saying it's ti…

What the what? Your generalizations are way out of line. You can argue about or criticize the ruling but don't use it out of context to push your own agenda.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#136

Post by sageikosa »

gedrap wrote: post #62
celticninja wrote: post #5

Seems reasonable. Not like he was nicking razor blades and booze just some necessities. Shame it had to go so far but hopefully it will prevent similar court action or arrests in future.

So, if you are proved to be poor or hungry (whatever that means), does it give you a green light to steal? Maybe, let's say, steal 10 times a day from 10 different shops, and resell the goods for half the price and use the money for something else? I mean that's a lovely headline and all, but in startups lingo, it doesn't scale.

Carrying capacity has no place in the calculation of the value of need.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#137

Post by jbmorgado »

garyrob wrote: post #30

It's a little hard to understand how this ruling won't cause a certain degree of chaos. Can any hungry, homeless person now steal food from any store in Italy without repercussion? Certainly as a matter of compassion, this ruling can be argued as being reasonable, but how can it work as a practical matter?

Well, perhaps you can see the problem from the other way: From now on is up to the government and ultimately to the society to make sure nobody is hungry.

I mean, the production means are far more than enough to accomplish that and in the western world, only a society where wealth distribution is deeply unbalanced can have people going hungry, so that's the problem we need to address.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#138

Post by lnanek2 »

distances wrote: post #72
School-Cotton wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice I imagine it will result in homeless (or generally poor-looking) people being routinely banned from stores in Italy.

I don't think it's legal for stores to choose their customers.

As a college kid who used to dress rough in NYC, I've certainly been escorted out immediately for just walking into expensive stores there. What's legal isn't what happens in all cases.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#139

Post by peterwwillis »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #130
peterwwillis wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stealing food and destruction of private property are wildly different charges. And hopefully if you were a businessman you'd be smart enough to have insurance....

Insurance premiums go up ask risk goes up. This will increase risk. Now the vending business isn't profitable, I lose my means of making a living, and now what? Just join everyone in stealing? There are many unintended consquences here you're obviously not thinking through. The reality is that this ruling is a game-changer and many will interpret it in different ways. There's no hollywood style theft where you just s…

Risk will not go up, because vending machines will not be smashed, because they would go to jail for even longer than for just stealing food.

I don't think you've thought through these extra cases you're worried about. They all involve extra crimes, which they would be convicted for, because the decision in this case was very specific. Judges do actually think about these things before they make decisions.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#140

Post by zaroth »

lazarus101 wrote: post #50
lumberjack wrote: post #16

>In 2015, Mr Ostriakov was convicted of theft and sentenced to six months in jail and a €100 fine. The first judge clearly messed up. A suspended sentence would have been ideal in this case.

6 months in jail means free food for 6 months!

And the most expensive way possible to feed someone too.
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