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Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

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Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#131

Post by a_bonobo »

phatfish wrote: post #90
a_bonobo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it depends on the prefecture and the type of construction site - the guys I've seen were always humans, no machine can copy that bored face...

There are a lot of safety personnel in larger London construction sites as well. I've seen men basically acting as barriers while their mate does work above a footpath. Also there are always people directing traffic in and out of a site, washing down every truck that leaves so there is no mud on the road, etc. I would assume it is more a case of construction in a large city is more difficult logistically as there are…

The people I mentioned above work at night, when the construction site is completely inactive. They're just living lights.

Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#132

Post by nihonde »

jazzyk wrote: post #124
nihonde wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have this thought that I want to express to you but I fear that it will prompt disagreement or come across as confrontational or dismissive when I really mean it in the spirit of compassion. I will do my best: The words you wrote reflect a state of mind that seeks a negative outcome. I'm sure you don't intend it, but you adopt a half-empty perspective. It's the same tone that the mainstream news media uses when it…

I've been to Japan a few times and I like many aspects of life there (I love Japanese art/sense of aesthetics, for example). I certainly wish the best to all humans, the Japanese people included. But we are discussing economics, and "hope" does not work in economics. Numbers do, and they do not add up. Japanese culture does not like confrontation and therefore it tends to hide/gloss over problems, be they economic (t…

But can't we agree that the numbers don't tell the whole story here? Whether it's because of consumer demand or diplomatic pressure, Japan doesn't have the freedom to manage its economy solely on the basis of what's best for Japan.

Also, you're entirely correct about weak management. The quality of Japanese society depends heavily on good stewardship due to the willingness to fall in line. It is basically a feudal arrangement played out in the business realm instead of political.

Take for example, the area where I live, Nagoya. It is home to Toyota, which is mostly a success story in this respect. Mitsubishi, too. When you read about the emissions scandal this week, remember that Mitsubishi also rolled out the X2 stealth fighter this month, and is gearing up for the MRJ regional jet program. These companies operate on a scale that is similar to nation states.

Meanwhile, the local universities are winning the Nobel Prize for little innovations like blue LEDs.

Everywhere I look, I see people living a higher quality of life than I see in America. My Japanese friends range from people who work very hard for very little money to people whose family sits on epic fortunes. When I go to the grocery store, the prices are less than half what they would be in any coastal American city, and the products are vastly higher quality. I bought my car (which gets 80PMG) for about US$10K...new, and it came with an in-dash TV/GPS, four cameras, autonomous stop radar, and regenerative brakes. US$10K off the lot. I never visited the car dealership...they sent a dealer to my house and I count him as a trusted friend now. He comes and picks up the car from time to time to have the fluids changed. Insurance for the car is a few hundred dollars a month, and fuel is about $26 per month for light city commuting. Most of the time, I ride my bike or ride the subway.

I own an apartment in New York City that is worth millions of dollars, but I choose to live here. I understand that there is an article in Bloomberg that shows a picture of a homeless person in Tokyo, but it's just simply not consistent with the reality of my life. You can (fairly) tell me that I'm insulated and willfully ignorant and that I lack data, but I'm still going to represent my perspective because it is at the end of the day more "real" than whatever Bloomberg is saying.

Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#133

Post by bcook »

brandelune wrote: post #123
bcook wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you removed "The author is stupid." from your post, I (and other "adults", assumedly) would be much more receptive to the rest of your post. (If you remove that line, I'll delete this post.)

You're free to look like an ass. But if you're suggesting that the author is not stupid, it either means that you've not read the article, or that you don't have a clue about the reality here in Japan, or that you're not very smart yourself.

Anyone who disagrees with your "The author is stupid" statement is either ignorant (of the article) or "not very smart"?

That logic forces you to ignore all disagreeing arguments without consideration...

Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#134

Post by nihonde »

jazzyk wrote: post #124
nihonde wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have this thought that I want to express to you but I fear that it will prompt disagreement or come across as confrontational or dismissive when I really mean it in the spirit of compassion. I will do my best: The words you wrote reflect a state of mind that seeks a negative outcome. I'm sure you don't intend it, but you adopt a half-empty perspective. It's the same tone that the mainstream news media uses when it…

I've been to Japan a few times and I like many aspects of life there (I love Japanese art/sense of aesthetics, for example). I certainly wish the best to all humans, the Japanese people included. But we are discussing economics, and "hope" does not work in economics. Numbers do, and they do not add up. Japanese culture does not like confrontation and therefore it tends to hide/gloss over problems, be they economic (t…

I just want to say one more thing about this, because I'm genuinely enjoying this conversation. Japan is a data-obsessesed society, but it is also superstitious. It's also largely Buddhist, which is a religion that orients toward the "middle way"—i.e., adopts the idea that every thing needs its opposite. It's important to reconcile the paradoxes of life in order to make real progress toward solutions.

Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#135

Post by nihonde »

dastbe wrote: post #129
nihonde wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From that report, Japan's rank for household financial wealth: 3 / 36. Anyway, the OECD report is highly suspect, IMO. It certainly doesn't tell the story that I've lived.

if I went by the story I've lived, I would assume that everyone in America makes six figures. I appreciate your optimism, but you can't let hope get in the way of data.

Well, I've made a lot of money in America and been afforded all of the privileges, but every North American city I've ever lived in had a miserable, destitute area and plenty of visibly neglected people, not to mention the background noise of violent crime and sleazy people who will take any advantage they can get. I wish it wasn't true, but it simply is. I've lived on the west coast, east coast, south and Canada. We really need to change our outlook if we hope to clean up our house. It starts with positive thinking.

Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#136

Post by jazzyk »

panarky wrote: post #130
jazzyk wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been to Japan a few times and I like many aspects of life there (I love Japanese art/sense of aesthetics, for example). I certainly wish the best to all humans, the Japanese people included. But we are discussing economics, and "hope" does not work in economics. Numbers do, and they do not add up. Japanese culture does not like confrontation and therefore it tends to hide/gloss over problems, be they economic (t…

> "hope" does not work in economics. Numbers do, and they do not add up. Economics is not about math, precise and inevitable. Economics is about people and their social interactions. Economists try to model social interactions with numbers, but don't mistake the map for the territory. What does it mean in human terms that Japan has high debt? Is your argument that Japan will inevitably default? Sophisticated traders…

Not sure about "doomed", but you can't spend money you don't have forever, you are taking the money from the future. Also, aging demographics is a big issue, because there will be fewer and fewer people to pay for retirees.

There are well-known hedge funds (check out Kyle Bass) betting against Japan.

There will be painful decisions to make, not just for Japan, but for other indebted countries (most of the developed world, unfortunately).

Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#137

Post by alphonsegaston »

nihonde wrote: post #126
alphonsegaston wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although this may be true for a wide swathe of Japanese citizens, the ruling party of Japan has a long history of whitewashing Japan's imperialist past, making this argument tenuous at best. Abe Shinzo's government has been actively dismantling press freedoms to quell anything resembling dissent on this front as well, while his colleagues openly reference the Nazi's rise to power as an exemplar. http://www.latimes.co…

It's an interesting problem. I don't like Abe very much, but I respect him. I wonder if most people understand what a powerful coalition he has in the current government? He is one of the most powerful leaders in the history of Japan by that measure. What makes him different is his emphasis on action. He says that he endured many years when the ruling party was hesitant to take action, and he was determined to move t…

Action in and of itself is not a virtue, especially when many of his iniatives take square aim at dismantling democratic freedoms. This is akin to the fetishization of "speed" by Italian futurists that paved the way for fascism's rise in Italy. And his coalition has long-standing ties to the yakuza and the CIA, so I guess it is "powerful" to the extent that it's aligned itself with malevolent actors whom his opponents would rather not consort with out of baseline morality. Again, I see nothing worthy of respect here or with the other corrupt regimes backed up with similar means.

Everyone involved with Japan's imperialist past may be dead, but some of its victims are not - for example surviving comfort women in Korea. Abe has on many occasions pandered to the extreme right by denying that anything was perpetrated against these people. I can't imagine being a victim of state-sponsored rape and having your experience further denied everytime a prime minister needs to curry favor. But I guess if "stuff needs to get done," that's just the cost of doing business.

http://www.japansubculture.com/how-the-cia-helped-put-the-ya...

Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#138

Post by panarky »

jazzyk wrote: post #136
panarky wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "hope" does not work in economics. Numbers do, and they do not add up. Economics is not about math, precise and inevitable. Economics is about people and their social interactions. Economists try to model social interactions with numbers, but don't mistake the map for the territory. What does it mean in human terms that Japan has high debt? Is your argument that Japan will inevitably default? Sophisticated traders…

Not sure about "doomed", but you can't spend money you don't have forever, you are taking the money from the future. Also, aging demographics is a big issue, because there will be fewer and fewer people to pay for retirees. There are well-known hedge funds (check out Kyle Bass) betting against Japan. There will be painful decisions to make, not just for Japan, but for other indebted countries (most of the developed w…

> you can't spend money you don't have forever

Nothing lasts forever, so let's talk about your model of how the economy works within your decision horizon.

The BoJ has been printing yen for decades, and the counter-intuitive result is that yen is strong and 30-year interest rates are less than one half of one percent.

Your model predicts imminent catastrophe, yet there is zero evidence that this cannot continue for the foreseeable future.

> you are taking the money from the future

No, we are borrowing from each other in the present. And those lending to Japan apparently think there is an extraordinarily low risk of default over the next 30 years.

> There are well-known hedge funds (check out Kyle Bass) betting against Japan.

And yet the yen is strong and interest rates are low.

When the facts on the ground contradict your mental model of how the world works, maybe it's time to change your model.

Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#139

Post by mkagenius »

vemy wrote: post #54
mkagenius wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ¥840,000 That's INR 8,597,047 in India. I think only top execs at a well established company make that much in India. Amazing.

That value is in Japanese Yen (JPY), not Chinese Yuan (CNY).

Sorry, lazily I just copy pasted into google, and didn't check the currency google understood it to be.

Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#140

Post by AnimalMuppet »

Chris2048 wrote: post #91
Chris2048 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which currently has the longest life expectancy, and one of the lowest crime rates lowest reported life expectancy, lowest reported crime rate.

Wow, first time I've got a negative points score on a comment. And for a statement of fact supported by some of the replies to this post. What's going on?!?

I didn't downvote you, but I'll take a guess.

You said that Japan was ahead in the reported statistics. And that statement is perfectly true. (What, we're going to use unreported statistics?) But it either says something very trivial, or else it implies that the reported statistics are unreliable and misleading. But it doesn't actually come out and say that. Still less does it supply any evidence for that.

A better, useful post would say, "That's only the reported statistics. But the official statistics are inaccurate, and more skewed in Japan than they are in other countries. Here's some evidence..."

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