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Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

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Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#91

Post by Chris2048 »

Chris2048 wrote: post #62
nihonde wrote: post #43

It's depressing to read all the misguided commentary about Japan in western media. We're talking about one of the world's oldest continuous civilizations, which currently has the longest life expectancy, and one of the lowest crime rates. Japan will endure, as it has for thousands of years. I'm more worried about where America and Europe are headed. Prosperity is one thing. Greed, corruption, and exploitation are ano…

> which currently has the longest life expectancy, and one of the lowest crime rates lowest reported life expectancy, lowest reported crime rate.

Wow, first time I've got a negative points score on a comment. And for a statement of fact supported by some of the replies to this post. What's going on?!?

Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#92

Post by _Codemonkeyism »

nihonde wrote: post #70
_Codemonkeyism wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"They've seen first-hand the folly of chasing America and Europe on their imperialist fancies." Interesting view on history.

Well, it was intended as an "aside" comment, but it's still interesting, if controversial. I believe that there is an unbroken thread from the arrival of American ships in Tokyo bay in 1853 to the current day. If you look at the official US history of that event (it's here: https://history.state.gov/milestones/1830-1860/opening-to-ja... ), it is characterized as a great opening of Japan to the world. In fact, it was…

Following this line of thought I would assume America is chasing Europe on their imperialist fancy, Europe (modern) those of the British, the British chasing Romes fancies, Rome those of the Greeks, the Greeks those of the Egyptians (and Persians?) and the Egyptians those of Sumer. This probably goes on though noone left writings before the Sumerians (but my knowledge is fague here).

I would also assume the invasions e.g. of Korea by Japanese before 1853 where not imperialist by intention.

Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#93

Post by blowski »

Chris2048 wrote: post #89
blowski wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there reason to believe they are both significantly misreported in Japan, compared to the US and EU? Genuine question as I've never seen otherwise but would be interested in reading about it. ===== I found this article about under reported crime, but couldn't find anything about the life expectancy being wrong. Japan's Police See No Evil (LA Times) http://articles.latimes.com/2007/nov/09/world/fg-autopsy9

This is certainly reason to doubt it; or at least specify that this is a self reported statistic when singing Japan's praises.

Well it's self-reported in the US and EU as well. Unless you can establish reasonable grounds to believe the statistics are significantly wrong, refusing to believe them just sounds nihilistic.

Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#95

Post by Chris2048 »

blowski wrote: post #93
Chris2048 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is certainly reason to doubt it; or at least specify that this is a self reported statistic when singing Japan's praises.

Well it's self-reported in the US and EU as well. Unless you can establish reasonable grounds to believe the statistics are significantly wrong, refusing to believe them just sounds nihilistic.

nihilistic? As in "rejecting all religious and moral principles in the belief that life is meaningless"?

In any case, what's to believe? We're comparing stats here, so we have to consider that maybe this isn't a legitimate exercise in the first place. Like comparing UK sexual-assault statistic in order to derive a ranking. Without a basis for error, our conclusions may be poor.

Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#96

Post by alphonsegaston »

nihonde wrote: post #72
facepalm wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thinking of WWII, Japan's culture was not always on the right track... Coming from Germany, I also wonder how much of the economic success stories of Japan and Germany is really because of cultural aspects, and how much is due to protectionism for example from the US. I think Germany was supported by the US a lot, as a shield against communism. Maybe a similar reasoning was at work in Japan.

Nothing happens in a vacuum. There are no "good guys" or "bad guys". Japan and Germany both pursued an agenda that were each ultimately misguided for a variety of different reasons. If you look for it, you will find similarly awful (and sometimes far worse) encroachments on the rights of human beings perpetrated by all kinds of people against all kinds of people. The important point is that the people who did those t…

Or simply that they were enamored with the colonial example of the west and had a tradition of extreme militarism and more fortunate historical circumstances that allowed them to project this sadistic fantasy on to their neighbors. I think you should be cautious in positing "world domination," premised on mass-genocide and slavery, as a sign of strength. It was a massive regression of humanity that was thankfully checked.

Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#97

Post by nihonde »

Chris2048 wrote: post #87
jfoutz wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hilarious. Any evidence? even the slightest? Look, yes, it may be the case that there is widespread corruption in the reporting of those statistics. But really, this is the same culture that produced the joke: no more that 1% failure rate in product, that ships 9900 perfect products and another box with 100 failures. Yes, salarymen may not tell the whole truth, but pervasive corruption seems, well, unlikely

"Hilarious"? Is that a glib response? In any case, you want me to provide evidence? of what? Why? It's not my job. My statements are perfectly true. If we take reported stats at face value, the UK has one of the highest rates of sexual assault in the world. In reality, they have the highest reported rate of sexual assault. The most problematic of the stats you mention is the crime rate - Japan also has a fairly high…

This whole line of argument makes no sense. Why wouldn't every country overreport old people or underreport deaths, as the case may be? Just about every country has an incentive for pension fraud.

So...why Japan?

Incidentally, old people are in visibly high numbers here in Japan. I joke sometimes that it's like living in a zombie movie——it's not uncommon to be completely surrounded by only elderly people shuffling to and fro.

Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#98

Post by nihonde »

_Codemonkeyism wrote: post #92
nihonde wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it was intended as an "aside" comment, but it's still interesting, if controversial. I believe that there is an unbroken thread from the arrival of American ships in Tokyo bay in 1853 to the current day. If you look at the official US history of that event (it's here: https://history.state.gov/milestones/1830-1860/opening-to-ja... ), it is characterized as a great opening of Japan to the world. In fact, it was…

Following this line of thought I would assume America is chasing Europe on their imperialist fancy, Europe (modern) those of the British, the British chasing Romes fancies, Rome those of the Greeks, the Greeks those of the Egyptians (and Persians?) and the Egyptians those of Sumer. This probably goes on though noone left writings before the Sumerians (but my knowledge is fague here). I would also assume the invasions…

Great point about Toyotomi Hideyoshi's attempt to conquer Korean and China! I guess the legacy of the Edo period was a kind of reset on that ambition, because the country was closed and not looking for a fight. I would say it was actually the failure of the shogunate to stand up to Commodore Perry that ended Edo and kicked off the outward-looking Meiji.

I'm no expert in this area, but I enjoy learning about it.

Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#99

Post by nihonde »

alphonsegaston wrote: post #96
nihonde wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing happens in a vacuum. There are no "good guys" or "bad guys". Japan and Germany both pursued an agenda that were each ultimately misguided for a variety of different reasons. If you look for it, you will find similarly awful (and sometimes far worse) encroachments on the rights of human beings perpetrated by all kinds of people against all kinds of people. The important point is that the people who did those t…

Or simply that they were enamored with the colonial example of the west and had a tradition of extreme militarism and more fortunate historical circumstances that allowed them to project this sadistic fantasy on to their neighbors. I think you should be cautious in positing "world domination," premised on mass-genocide and slavery, as a sign of strength. It was a massive regression of humanity that was thankfully che…

Is America a strong country in your mind? (It also has a history of mass genocide and slavery.)

Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#100

Post by mantas »

blowski wrote: post #63
Chris2048 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which currently has the longest life expectancy, and one of the lowest crime rates lowest reported life expectancy, lowest reported crime rate.

Is there reason to believe they are both significantly misreported in Japan, compared to the US and EU? Genuine question as I've never seen otherwise but would be interested in reading about it. ===== I found this article about under reported crime, but couldn't find anything about the life expectancy being wrong. Japan's Police See No Evil (LA Times) http://articles.latimes.com/2007/nov/09/world/fg-autopsy9

There may be slight amount of misreporting. But that exists more or less everywhere, thus it evens out IMO. In my experience, both low crime rate and long life expectancy seems more or less true.

Source: lived in Japan

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