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Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

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Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#51

Post by [deleted] »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #46
bcook wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Edit: I replied to the wrong poster or some similar mistake.) Disregard How can you argue against the author's immeasureable words/phrases like "very high", "low", "laziness", or "idleness", especially considering that you are relying on anecdotal evidence yourself? I have seen a bunch of tall trees Georgia, but my friend from California says they are small; which of us is correct? Who cares when the answer yields n…

> How can you argue against the author's immeasureable words/phrases like "very high", "low", "laziness", or "idleness" That's not what's happening at all. Taneq is saying nothing about the relative nature of those words. They are arguing that the author is making an inference in the wrong direction . > especially considering that you are relying on anecdotal evidence yourself Talking about cultural roles is the oppo…

[deleted]

Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#52

Post by [deleted] »

bcook wrote: post #34
taneq wrote: post #8

It's interesting that the author equates "Japan has very high labor force participation and low unemployment." with "No laziness or idleness here." The Japanese workplace culture of the 'sarariman' who spends 14+ hours a day in the office, achieving almost nothing, is legendary.

(Edit: I replied to the wrong poster or some similar mistake.) Disregard How can you argue against the author's immeasureable words/phrases like "very high", "low", "laziness", or "idleness", especially considering that you are relying on anecdotal evidence yourself? I have seen a bunch of tall trees Georgia, but my friend from California says they are small; which of us is correct? Who cares when the answer yields n…

[deleted]

Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#53

Post by fit2rule »

_Codemonkeyism wrote: post #47
nihonde wrote: post #43

It's depressing to read all the misguided commentary about Japan in western media. We're talking about one of the world's oldest continuous civilizations, which currently has the longest life expectancy, and one of the lowest crime rates. Japan will endure, as it has for thousands of years. I'm more worried about where America and Europe are headed. Prosperity is one thing. Greed, corruption, and exploitation are ano…

"They've seen first-hand the folly of chasing America and Europe on their imperialist fancies." Interesting view on history.

I'd see it more as a comment on the here and now. History is one thing. The wanton destruction of other nation states at the present time, another thing entirely.

Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#54

Post by vemy »

mkagenius wrote: post #14
GreaterFool wrote: post #10

"The survey compared the incomes of the bottom 10 percent of households with children to the average income of 41 countries who are members of the OECD or the European Union. The income gap in Japan was found to be 60.21 percent, meaning the household income of the nation’s most underprivileged families with children was less than 40 percent of the average." I'm not sure how to read this. Income gap be damned, what i…

> ¥840,000 That's INR 8,597,047 in India. I think only top execs at a well established company make that much in India. Amazing.

That value is in Japanese Yen (JPY), not Chinese Yuan (CNY).

Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#55

Post by achamayou »

nihonde wrote: post #43

It's depressing to read all the misguided commentary about Japan in western media. We're talking about one of the world's oldest continuous civilizations, which currently has the longest life expectancy, and one of the lowest crime rates. Japan will endure, as it has for thousands of years. I'm more worried about where America and Europe are headed. Prosperity is one thing. Greed, corruption, and exploitation are ano…

To be fair, the way America and Europe are represented in Japanese media is hardly accurate either. I think you should temper your depressed feelings with some bemusement at how cultures never quite understand each other. That's what I would expect a wise oji-san to do anyway.

Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#56

Post by bcook »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #46
bcook wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Edit: I replied to the wrong poster or some similar mistake.) Disregard How can you argue against the author's immeasureable words/phrases like "very high", "low", "laziness", or "idleness", especially considering that you are relying on anecdotal evidence yourself? I have seen a bunch of tall trees Georgia, but my friend from California says they are small; which of us is correct? Who cares when the answer yields n…

> How can you argue against the author's immeasureable words/phrases like "very high", "low", "laziness", or "idleness" That's not what's happening at all. Taneq is saying nothing about the relative nature of those words. They are arguing that the author is making an inference in the wrong direction . > especially considering that you are relying on anecdotal evidence yourself Talking about cultural roles is the oppo…

Yeah, I agree. I think I made a mistake.

I edited my post. I am not sure what my original post was referring to... embarassing. :)

Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#57

Post by mafribe »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #37
_Codemonkeyism wrote: post #12

Basically there are two definitions of poverty with two crowds of followers. 1. People are poor if they can't afford (basic) things. People are very poor if they go hungry to bed. 2. People are poor if they earn less [1] than the average (not median) household. From the article "The report looked at the gap between the income of the poorest Japanese families with children and the average household income." When does…

> People are poor if they earn less than the average (not median) household. From the article "The report looked at the gap between the income of the poorest Japanese families with children and the average household income." And I thought the US move to define the poverty line as the 40th percentile of income (or something lower; I don't remember this too well) was absurd. The average household income is, by necessit…

   the poverty line as the 40th percentile 
   of income [...] was absurd.
It's best understood not as a honest attempt at understanding poverty, but as a political manoeuvre.

In the past (19th century and before), the socialist/communist tradition had a real point in that large swathes of the population were poor in an absolute sense (e.g. going hungry, cold, no adequate health-care, pension etc). The socialist/communist tradition was in some sense about abolishing absolute poverty (whether the proposed methods were helpful or not is another discussion). If you read e.g. the communist manifesto [1], that is clear. Most of socialist/communist politics centered around politicising and radicalising the absolute poor with a view towards taking them out of absolute poverty.

However, modern industrialised society has (simplifying a bit) abolished absolute poverty.

This leaves socialist/communist politics in a conundrum: how to continue to politicise/radicalise people to become followers. The concept of relative poverty is the answer: all the old political tools can be reused by changing what is meant by poverty.

[1] https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-m...

Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#58

Post by mikekchar »

adrianN wrote: post #33
mikekchar wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

¥900,000 is almost exactly what I spent on average over a 5 year period from 2007-2012 living in rural Japan (Shizuoka prefecture). A couple of caveats: I was single at the time. I had subsidized housing (worth about ¥250,000 yen a year). I didn't have a car. That was the money I spent , and I made considerably more than that so was able to save quite a lot. However, I was very comfortable with that level of expendit…

What job did you have during that time? Living in rural Japan sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me.

I was teaching English at the time. I'm currently in the same area programming on contract. It is quite wonderful. To be honest I'm hoping to expand and hire people, but haven't got everything sorted out yet. It occurred to me that it might be possible to find good people who want to live in rural Japan :-). Probably won't get my act together for another year or so...

Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#59

Post by chvid »

First off. Economists define "poverty rate" in a slightly cheeky manner:

"The poverty rate is the ratio of the number of people who fall below the poverty line and the total population; the poverty line is here taken as half the median household income."

This means that if the middle class is 5% better off after one year and the lower class is only 2% better off, then the poverty rate will go up. Eventhough all households are doing better.

The same goes in reverse. If the middle class is 5% worse off after one year and the lower class is only 2% worse off, then the poverty rate will go down. Eventhough everyone is doing worse.

This does not mean that the number is meaningless; it just cannot stand on its own.

Secondly. Japan is much nicer with those bad things that hurt the lower classes in other societies:

Crime is much lower, relatively few people in prisons. And the public school system is of very high standard.

Re: Japan's Growing Poverty Defies Glib Explanations

#60

Post by mikekchar »

archagon wrote: post #38
mikekchar wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

¥900,000 is almost exactly what I spent on average over a 5 year period from 2007-2012 living in rural Japan (Shizuoka prefecture). A couple of caveats: I was single at the time. I had subsidized housing (worth about ¥250,000 yen a year). I didn't have a car. That was the money I spent , and I made considerably more than that so was able to save quite a lot. However, I was very comfortable with that level of expendit…

Out of curiosity, are there any such rural areas with an expat presence?

Virtually every rural area in Japan has expat English teachers. In my immediate area there are probably 10 or 20 people who are native English speakers. I think that's typical. I tend hang out with Japanese people since I speak Japanese and my wife is Japanese, but it's not terribly difficult to get by without much Japanese language skill, especially if you are young.
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