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Being a Developer After 40

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Re: Being a Developer After 40

#471

Post by beat »

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #416
beat wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "reasonable argument" for privilege isn't that you grew up rich or whatever, but rather that there are negative assumptions made about others that are not made about you. For example, one of my best friends is a doctor, who moved into hospital administration, and from there into financial advising and investing. He's very wealthy and successful. And if he's pulled over by the cops, he has to worry that they'll as…

Thanks for giving examples of what you consider "white male privilege" to be. In earlier comments I wasn't asserting that being a white male has no advantages in the software industry. I was curious about the author's reasoning as to why attempting to counteract it was a moral imperative for white males.

It's not that white males have an advantage, it's that others have a disadvantage. The word "privilege" to describe this phenomenon was a terrible branding decision imho - it's hostile and negative, and alienates those most in need of understanding. But it's the word we have, and the phenomenon is real.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#472

Post by JohnBooty »

AlexC04 wrote: post #202
JohnBooty wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from an Eastern Europe and my family never was rich, I had to put in a tremendous effort to even get into the industry. Assuming I got an easy ride simply because I'm white is a pretty racist statement I was about to patiently type out another "hey, you did work hard and you did earn your success - 'white privilege' doesn't mean things were handed to you easily; it means that even though your life has been hard y…

Sorry, but try being Romani (colloquially: gypsy) anywhere in the UK and tell me it is "white" that makes the difference.

As the person who started this chain of discussion about white privilege, I feel responsible to say: I absolutely understand that being "white" is not an automatic advantage everywhere.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#473

Post by Chris2048 »

themodelplumber wrote: post #447
pasquinelli wrote: post #438

"you were, are and will be a software developer, that is, a relatively expensive factory worker, whose tasks your managers would be happy to offshore no matter what they tell you." this is exactly my experience. writing software really doesn't require any great creative mind or cleverness. i'm a pretty mediocre programmer. i got roped into programming as a kid by, first of all because i wanted to make video games, bu…

While it probably confirms a lot of fears around here, this comment is pretty hyperbolic. That is to say, it captures the lowest lows (replaceable cog) and some of the highest highs (experimental physicist in Tetris universe). But most of us are not really suffering under those conditions, except (critically!) in an imagined way. > it doesn't require any insight, unless you intend to write good software, but no one c…

> This last statement is demonstrably false. Many people care about good software. Just like they care about good cars, good vacations, good hot dogs.

If allowing poor software means delivering on time, and thus being able to afford those cars, dogs and vacations, which do you think the people in charge of those things will choose?

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#474

Post by eggy »

lgieron wrote: post #127
eggy wrote: post #20

I liked the post, and empathized with some truths in it. I saved up and bought a used Commodore PET in 1977 at age 13. I taught myself assembler, c, basic, and went on to buy a Vic-20, C-64, Amiga 1000, Amiga 500, Mac PowerPC, NCR 3125 (386 pen-based tablet in 1995 or 1996!), and then read up on AI in the 1980s - Neural Networks, GAs, GP, Expert systems, Fuzzy Systems, Chaos, Complexity, etc... I was using Minix on m…

A question - you are looking for 'fun' in a job and, at the same time, consider programming fun - haven't you been able to find a programming job you like?

Not really. I code what I am interested in. Most jobs are broken down into small parts for many programmers to work on. I like doing one-liners, and code to solve a specific problem I am having in another discipline like engineering, or art.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#475

Post by maratd »

JohnBooty wrote: post #448
maratd wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but would you say "life isn't fair, deal with it" to slaves in the South in the 1800s? Yes, I would say exactly that. I would tell them to accept their situation, not whine about it, then break free and run to the north. Many did just that. When they got to the north, I would encourage them to work hard and make a better life for themselves through hard work. Many did just that. Yes, they would need to work harder…

Recognizing privilege and inequality is not "rigging the system." In your examples, nobody would break free and run to the north if they didn't recognize the inequality in the first place. Also, is that really what you want to say on a public forum? You want to say that ending slavery was the slaves' responsibility? Interesting.

> Also, is that really what you want to say on a public forum? You want to say that ending slavery was the slaves' responsibility? Interesting.

Not what I said, you need to buy new reading glasses.

Doing anything starts with the individual. If you're a slave, that means resisting and running away. If you're a white dude in the north, that means supporting abolition. You get the idea. That's the only way to get anything done.

> Recognizing privilege and inequality is not "rigging the system."

Recognizing? You're not interested in recognizing.

You're interested in discriminating against those you recognized as privileged to benefit those you recognized as disadvantaged. Which is bad enough, but really much worse because of the you part ... and the you part is always the privileged.

This isn't the minorities standing up for themselves ... it's just the privileged stacking the deck again. The only way to make sure absolute justice and fairness is to make sure the deck is never stacked. Ever. For any reason.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#476

Post by vonmoltke »

mikeokner wrote: post #267
heckerboy wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious, where did you move to? I am also looking to leave the valley someday, but am afraid that the jobs won't be as plentiful as they are here.

Most large metros will have at least a halfway-decent number of software jobs available. NYC, Chicago, Dallas, Boston, Minneapolis, St. Louis, etc. all have decent markets. It won't be like SV where there are a million startups, but they also won't be 100% corporate, either. Check out LinkedIn or Dice or something to check a specific area.

Eh, Dallas is about 80% corporate, with the majority being non-software companies. It's really depressing since I don't have any interest in that kind of work beyond the money. There is some small to midsize web/mobile work to be had, though.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#477

Post by dgacmu »

jazzyk wrote: post #450
kjksf wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure there are more distinguished engineers and other senior engineering roles paying $750/year in total comp at Google/Microsoft/Apple etc. than there are neurosurgeons. Not to mention tens of thousands of average developers that got lucky with stock options and became millionaires where a doctor of same age is still slaving away as a resident with 24-hour shifts and abysmal pay ($50-$60k year for surgica…

>The market (not society) is treating us developers pretty >well. I am on the East Coast (outside of NYC, though), have been in the software business for 20+ years and know a lot of smart /accomplished people. I don't know a single software engineer who makes more than $200K/year in a senior engineering role, as an employee. (We are comparing salaries, not consulting income or stock options here, which can disappear…

Please include stock grants, because otherwise it's a silly comparison. With that included, I know a lot of people in SV, NYC, and even Pittsburgh who meet that bar. Google, Facebook, Dropbox, Microsoft -- all of these places pay over $200k total compensation for senior engineers. A grant of shares of GOOG or MSFT every year isn't likely to completely disappear within the vesting period...

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#478

Post by willtim »

kls wrote: post #115
iorrus wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Age is an issue with software devlopment. Early forties is not old at all, realistically you will likely be working for another 20 years unless you've already made significant money. In many professions such as law you're only getting started at 40. If in software it's an achievement to reach that milestone than something is wrong.

As one of the few left of my peers that still develops I would say that it is a milestone. There is a lot of burn out and churn along the way. I knew guys that left software dev to become a worm farmer. Most take the elevator up to management which is what I did becoming a CTO but I always position myself at small but growing companies so I could keep myself hands on with technology. I have two friends left that star…

I would certainly rather farm worms than take many mainstream tech jobs. There's probably much more freedom to innovate.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#479

Post by WalterSear »

pc86 wrote: post #415
jazzyk wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and all are highly skilled professionals Apparently (and unfairly), our society thinks otherwise - family doctors make $150K/year and neurosurgeons make $750K/year :-)

Outside of SV and NYC, $150k is more than enough for a single-income family of four to have a solidly upper-middle class lifestyle.

Not, really, if saving for retirement is factored in. Most people aren't saving at all, which is how they manage to maintain that upper middle class lifestyle on what has becoming the equivalent of a formerly lower middle class salary.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#480

Post by Chris2048 »

pasquinelli wrote: post #438

"you were, are and will be a software developer, that is, a relatively expensive factory worker, whose tasks your managers would be happy to offshore no matter what they tell you." this is exactly my experience. writing software really doesn't require any great creative mind or cleverness. i'm a pretty mediocre programmer. i got roped into programming as a kid by, first of all because i wanted to make video games, bu…

I feel "software dev" is too broad. And the ambiguity disguises choices that might harm you prospects.

I read this: http://quantjob.blogspot.com/2011/12/how-to-avoid-quantdevel...

And the description of being "sucked in" to a "housekeeping IT" rang scarily true. Match with this phenomenon: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B64WFyuCIAAjq3u.png

And you might realise there are shitty dev jobs with poor prospects out there, that bill themselves as more than they are. The whole "passionate about my job" thing then becomes a little sinister.

There are different classes of dev jobs. The bad ones pay little and lead to less, and will usually come painted with BS. The "passionate" dev will be happy with whatever they get, and they'll get very little to be passionate about - in-house housekeeping all the way.

But at least the market is good enough now that you can always realise this later and try to fix things. When the gravy train begins to wain, you might be stuck with what you have...

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