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Being a Developer After 40

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Re: Being a Developer After 40

#441

Post by cname »

mc32 wrote: post #339
JohnBooty wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, absolutely. Being white is not an advantage everywhere. There are some places where beig white is a distinct disadvantage. Like the examples you named. Or, try being a European male in ISIS-controlled territory! That'll get you killed pretty quick, right? No "white privilege" there. In Sunni-dominated regions, in fact, Sunni privilege is a thing. I mean, obviously, right? Sunnis in those regions have a lot of r…

Right but you're skirting right by. The thing is it is a pretty common phenomenon. It's something that isn't intrinsic to white people or any single class of people. It happens to be that in the US whites on average can experience advantage. But if the US had a different history and were colonized by other people there would be other people experiencing this "privilege". I mean, we don't go around calling the issue S…

So, it's a pretty common problem. I think everyone knows that. Does that mean we shouldn't address the problems in front of us?

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#442

Post by sklogic »

pc86 wrote: post #186
manishsharan wrote: post #177

As a developer over 40, my biggest challenge is actually that the management has come to expect weekend work and late nights as the norm. As someone with a family , I can't put in those hours every day and every weekend. Single programmers who can put in those kind of hours are rewarded and those who cant are singled out for ridicule or "performance concern chats with manager". Projects have gone agile and they have…

This is probably an unpopular opinion here, but only a very small subset of developers need to design algorithms or even know any of them by heart. Disregarding a few years that was mostly WordPress consulting, my experience is largely enterprise C#. Lots of line of business applications, glorified CRUD apps, and some client work. Zero need for any ability to write a BST or radix sort. If you're working for SpaceX, o…

You're designing algorithms even when you're coding a FizzBuzz or a "Hello, world". And most of the business logic is by far more complex than FizzBuzz.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#443

Post by AudaIbuTayi »

JohnBooty wrote: post #424
AudaIbuTayi wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> misunderstand the term in such spectacular ways Who could have guessed that identifying and singling out a particular race for correction and self-abasement would entail some push-back? [1] > This just isn't working. Actually, I think it is working as intended. A thriving industry has arisen around the elimination of "white privilege". The term has served that industry well as marketing. > I'm a firm believer in th…

We have hundreds of years of high-quality race-neutral rights language to pick from. Why was that language eschewed? Do we have equality today in America? The answer to that might assist you in your search for understanding. Who could have guessed that identifying and singling out a particular race for correction and self-abasement would entail some push-back? As a white male in America, I just don't feel that recogn…

> Do we have equality today in America?

You're being parochial. This is an international forum. Do "we" have equality in Israel? In China? In Saudi Arabia?

> I don't feel the need to push back.

You've stated that the phrase "white privilege" is resulting in "spectacular" misunderstanding. I'm agreeing that it is a fatally fraught phrase. I wish you luck in replacing it (if that's what you meant by "we need better language").

> Why does it make you feel that way?

Signaling that _you_ are thinking while _they_ are emoting is a bad-faith tell.

> I think that would be a naive and ineffective approach [simply talking about "privilege" and not "white privilege" or other privilege]

So where does that leave your search for better language?

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#444

Post by JohnBooty »

obstacle1 wrote: post #196
skrebbel wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By "we" he meant "this interest group that I identify with", and you know it. No need to heat up the fire under a topic that's already so prone to flamewars.

He was responding to someone who was offering a disagreeing POV, on a public web forum that anyone can read or participate in. In that context, typing "we need better language" implies identification with the whole audience, i.e. all readers. 'We' does not mean 'my group of political activists' when used in that way. Hence why the correction is important. Especially given that he was advocating for the redefinition o…

What a strange stance to take.

"I don't agree with this concept, so I want it to have an ineffective or misleading name!"

If icepick lobotomies were called "happy sunshine treatments," or if breaking into peoples' homes and killing their pets was called "saying hello to your neighbors" I'm sure we could agree that those are wildly misleading terms and that we should find more accurate ones, even if we didn't agree with those practices.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#445

Post by AlexeyBrin »

flexie wrote: post #263
AlexeyBrin wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my traveling experience the cost of food in large cities in Bulgaria and Romania is about the same as the cost of food in Canada. Yes, they have (much) lower wages there and they will accept your low offer because they have no better choice to make more money. Please don't delude yourself in believing you pay them a fair/decent price. You just pay them better than what they could make locally.

Oh, please. From my experience living in the US and now living in the capital of Bulgaria I know that the price of food, housing etc. is way lower here than in the valley or NYC. Easily 3 times cheaper. And the tax is lower too. But don't take my word for it: https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/sofia/s... ? A decent full stack developer in his early 20s with no or little college education and 2-4 yea…

I was talking about the average cost of life in North America, I think Montreal and Toronto can be considered about average. The cost of living in the Valley is not representative for medium to large cities of USA or Canada.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#446

Post by toomuchtodo »

tluyben2 wrote: post #33
soft_dev_person wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks a lot for elaborating. I suspect I need to get over my social challenges to make something like this work. And probably move (or travel more) to places where these gatherings actually happen. I live in a "technological desert" at the moment, which is a challenge in itself.

I live deep in the mountains of Spain :) Village with 40 people and more goats than people. That's why the flying...

That sounds fantastic.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#447

Post by themodelplumber »

pasquinelli wrote: post #438

"you were, are and will be a software developer, that is, a relatively expensive factory worker, whose tasks your managers would be happy to offshore no matter what they tell you." this is exactly my experience. writing software really doesn't require any great creative mind or cleverness. i'm a pretty mediocre programmer. i got roped into programming as a kid by, first of all because i wanted to make video games, bu…

While it probably confirms a lot of fears around here, this comment is pretty hyperbolic. That is to say, it captures the lowest lows (replaceable cog) and some of the highest highs (experimental physicist in Tetris universe). But most of us are not really suffering under those conditions, except (critically!) in an imagined way.

> it doesn't require any insight, unless you intend to write good software, but no one cares about good software.

This last statement is demonstrably false. Many people care about good software. Just like they care about good cars, good vacations, good hot dogs.

But still, grumpy developers will upvote this and believe in it. They then become a self-fulfilling prophecy. They see threats that don't exist, then at some point they call out those threats and in doing so cash in their chips.

I've seen many smart developers miss great opportunities in doing this. They could be learning to make their own terms and push back, taking advantage of high demand. Instead they become a plumber, landscaper, or Ph.D., thinking the grass really is greener over there. Well, maybe so. But that mentality has not changed, so what are the real chances?

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#448

Post by JohnBooty »

maratd wrote: post #413
thedz wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's how life works. Stop whining. No, life isn't fair. Deal with it. I realize that the context is different in the U.S. vs the rest of the world, but would you say "life isn't fair, deal with it" to slaves in the South in the 1800s? Or to segregated blacks in the 1900s? Or to women who couldn't vote? Or, to use a more modern example, to Muslims who are facing prejudice and persecution because of the actions of…

> but would you say "life isn't fair, deal with it" to slaves in the South in the 1800s? Yes, I would say exactly that. I would tell them to accept their situation, not whine about it, then break free and run to the north. Many did just that. When they got to the north, I would encourage them to work hard and make a better life for themselves through hard work. Many did just that. Yes, they would need to work harder…

Recognizing privilege and inequality is not "rigging the system."

In your examples, nobody would break free and run to the north if they didn't recognize the inequality in the first place.

Also, is that really what you want to say on a public forum? You want to say that ending slavery was the slaves' responsibility? Interesting.

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#449

Post by wrsh07 »

BurningFrog wrote: post #386
wrsh07 wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's not the only facet that matters. And I think that minorities want white males to be a part of the discussion about race. However, oftentimes white males say the same exact things. You can kind of enumerate them, "Not all white males," "White people can be poor," "Hey, you're black, can you explain...?" etc. Many answers to these questions can be found here: http://theteej.tumblr.com/post/122334039549/h…

> Finally, I'll reference John Green and say that if you're doing something that multiple people tell you is offensive or bothersome: Stop doing it. Does that include people telling you Social Justice rhetoric is offensive or bothersome?

Of course. If I were told by a reasonable threshold of people that promoting my causes [whatever they are] is bothersome, I would certainly stop around those people. [depending on how important they are, I might stop altogether]

To be honest, I don't normally try to defend this sort of thing on the internet because it's hard to establish a connection. I can't listen to your experiences, BurningFrog, and empathize. I'd like to. Because I think that that's the only way to change your opinion, and I think this is important.

That said, since I fully expect you to tell me that championing social justice is bothersome I'll let you know that you'll be the first person to tell me that [which I find surprising, although I suppose it's because I truly don't discuss it much].

Re: Being a Developer After 40

#450

Post by jazzyk »

kjksf wrote: post #430
jazzyk wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and all are highly skilled professionals Apparently (and unfairly), our society thinks otherwise - family doctors make $150K/year and neurosurgeons make $750K/year :-)

I'm pretty sure there are more distinguished engineers and other senior engineering roles paying $750/year in total comp at Google/Microsoft/Apple etc. than there are neurosurgeons. Not to mention tens of thousands of average developers that got lucky with stock options and became millionaires where a doctor of same age is still slaving away as a resident with 24-hour shifts and abysmal pay ($50-$60k year for surgica…

>The market (not society) is treating us developers pretty >well.

I am on the East Coast (outside of NYC, though), have been in the software business for 20+ years and know a lot of smart /accomplished people.

I don't know a single software engineer who makes more than $200K/year in a senior engineering role, as an employee. (We are comparing salaries, not consulting income or stock options here, which can disappear very quickly).

It would be nice for you to step outside of the bubble you live in SV, every now and then :-)

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