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The Al-Qaeda Leader Who Wasn’t: The Shameful Ordeal of Abu Zubaydah

tomdispatch.com

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Re: The Al-Qaeda Leader Who Wasn’t: The Shameful Ordeal of Abu Zubaydah

#21

Post by jmnicolas »

This article will not change anything. By the time our day end we will have been bombarded by so much other information that it will just be one more forgotten thing.

And there's so much things that are revolting that our brains are just shutting down as a self defense mechanism.

Sociopaths in power don't even need to hide anymore, they know they are hidden in the noise.

I mean look at Turkey : they help ISIS, they shoot Syrian refugees crossing the border, they kill their own Kurdish population and they denies a genocide ... barely a blip in the news.

Re: The Al-Qaeda Leader Who Wasn’t: The Shameful Ordeal of Abu Zubaydah

#22

Post by booleandilemma »

GordonS wrote: post #10
brillenfux wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Justified" is the word you're looking for. We want it to be justified, not honorable. Nobody gives two shits about honor as soon as it is about "them" (whoever fits that definition currently).

I'm not sure this kind of disgusting behaviour can ever be justified.

I'm alright with it, as long as we know the person is a threat to our national security.

The people who commit acts like the Boston Marathon Bombings, the Brussels Bombings, 9/11, etc. - these people are not our friends. If given the opportunity, they would kill every single one of us.

So if the people who are on our side feel they need to use torture on these people to keep us safe, I'm not going to argue with them.

Re: The Al-Qaeda Leader Who Wasn’t: The Shameful Ordeal of Abu Zubaydah

#23

Post by booleandilemma »

booleandilemma wrote: post #22
GordonS wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure this kind of disgusting behaviour can ever be justified.

I'm alright with it, as long as we know the person is a threat to our national security. The people who commit acts like the Boston Marathon Bombings, the Brussels Bombings, 9/11, etc. - these people are not our friends. If given the opportunity, they would kill every single one of us. So if the people who are on our side feel they need to use torture on these people to keep us safe, I'm not going to argue with them.

Ah I see how this site works

Re: The Al-Qaeda Leader Who Wasn’t: The Shameful Ordeal of Abu Zubaydah

#25

Post by harryf »

jmnicolas wrote: post #21

This article will not change anything. By the time our day end we will have been bombarded by so much other information that it will just be one more forgotten thing. And there's so much things that are revolting that our brains are just shutting down as a self defense mechanism. Sociopaths in power don't even need to hide anymore, they know they are hidden in the noise. I mean look at Turkey : they help ISIS, they s…

20 years ago it wouldn't have been news at all. Now it's hard to make things completely vanish. Its just the balance between scandals and outrage has shifted; far more scandals are floating to the surface in the Information Age and outrage has yet to catch up. But it will

Re: The Al-Qaeda Leader Who Wasn’t: The Shameful Ordeal of Abu Zubaydah

#26

Post by [deleted] »

jmnicolas wrote: post #21

This article will not change anything. By the time our day end we will have been bombarded by so much other information that it will just be one more forgotten thing. And there's so much things that are revolting that our brains are just shutting down as a self defense mechanism. Sociopaths in power don't even need to hide anymore, they know they are hidden in the noise. I mean look at Turkey : they help ISIS, they s…

[deleted]

Re: The Al-Qaeda Leader Who Wasn’t: The Shameful Ordeal of Abu Zubaydah

#27

Post by ramblerman »

Natanael_L wrote: post #16
7952 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is coneviable that circumstances could exist where the use of torture would prevent some greater evil. But the only proper place to make such an argument is in court as a defense against prosecution. The act would still be illegal and should still be illegal. The disgusting thing is trying to pre-approve illegal acts ahead of time and using that as a defence.

Problem is that it doesn't even give all that much actionable information in the first place.

Yes and no. In the case of somebody who has information waterboarding is generally an 'efficient' strategy. i.e. you have the guy you know hid the bomb somewhere in manhattan.

It's just very hard to tell when somebody doesn't know anything. And they will start making up information to make it stop. i.e. 10 guys and you have reason to believe one of them may have hidden a bomb somewhere.

Re: The Al-Qaeda Leader Who Wasn’t: The Shameful Ordeal of Abu Zubaydah

#28

Post by gerbilly »

7952 wrote: post #13
GordonS wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure this kind of disgusting behaviour can ever be justified.

It is coneviable that circumstances could exist where the use of torture would prevent some greater evil. But the only proper place to make such an argument is in court as a defense against prosecution. The act would still be illegal and should still be illegal. The disgusting thing is trying to pre-approve illegal acts ahead of time and using that as a defence.

> It is coneviable that circumstances could exist where the use of torture would prevent some greater evil.

Sure, but this is just a thought experiment.

In real life, these kind of tactics simply don't work.

Re: The Al-Qaeda Leader Who Wasn’t: The Shameful Ordeal of Abu Zubaydah

#29

Post by RobertoG »

booleandilemma wrote: post #23
booleandilemma wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm alright with it, as long as we know the person is a threat to our national security. The people who commit acts like the Boston Marathon Bombings, the Brussels Bombings, 9/11, etc. - these people are not our friends. If given the opportunity, they would kill every single one of us. So if the people who are on our side feel they need to use torture on these people to keep us safe, I'm not going to argue with them.

Ah I see how this site works

It's something that also bother me about HN. People downvote when disagree. I think that downvoting should be used for uncivil comments, not related comments, spam.. Otherwise we will finish in an echo-chamber.

When we disagree we should answer. This is what I'm going try to do.

First, you say "If given the opportunity, they would kill every single one of us". That's not true. Those terrorist acts have politic goals.

Then, you say "So if the people who are on our side feel they need.." Here you assume that those people is in your side, and that they shouldn't be under control. Two assumptions that I recommend you to give more consideration.

Re: The Al-Qaeda Leader Who Wasn’t: The Shameful Ordeal of Abu Zubaydah

#30

Post by pigpaws »

booleandilemma wrote: post #23
booleandilemma wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm alright with it, as long as we know the person is a threat to our national security. The people who commit acts like the Boston Marathon Bombings, the Brussels Bombings, 9/11, etc. - these people are not our friends. If given the opportunity, they would kill every single one of us. So if the people who are on our side feel they need to use torture on these people to keep us safe, I'm not going to argue with them.

Ah I see how this site works

yeah, isn't democracy grand? Its' a microcosm of the MSM.... and you thought this was a republic? Outrage-on-demand.

EVERY opinion is protected, unless it doesn't agree with the "masses"...

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