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The Al-Qaeda Leader Who Wasn’t: The Shameful Ordeal of Abu Zubaydah

tomdispatch.com

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Re: The Al-Qaeda Leader Who Wasn’t: The Shameful Ordeal of Abu Zubaydah

#11

Post by Maxious »

GordonS wrote: post #10
brillenfux wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Justified" is the word you're looking for. We want it to be justified, not honorable. Nobody gives two shits about honor as soon as it is about "them" (whoever fits that definition currently).

I'm not sure this kind of disgusting behaviour can ever be justified.

"Nearly two-thirds of Americans believe torture can be justified to extract information from suspected terrorists, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll ... Only 15 percent said torture should never be used ... The Reuters/Ipsos poll included 1,976 people. It has a credibility interval, a measure of accuracy, of 2.5 percentage points for the entire group" http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-torture-exclu...

Re: The Al-Qaeda Leader Who Wasn’t: The Shameful Ordeal of Abu Zubaydah

#12

Post by PerryCox »

Maxious wrote: post #11
GordonS wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure this kind of disgusting behaviour can ever be justified.

"Nearly two-thirds of Americans believe torture can be justified to extract information from suspected terrorists, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll ... Only 15 percent said torture should never be used ... The Reuters/Ipsos poll included 1,976 people. It has a credibility interval, a measure of accuracy, of 2.5 percentage points for the entire group" http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-torture-exclu...

I wonder if that had been worded as American citizen, instead of suspected terrorist, if the results would have been any different. Even so that is still too high of a number of people who are ok with torture.

Re: The Al-Qaeda Leader Who Wasn’t: The Shameful Ordeal of Abu Zubaydah

#13

Post by 7952 »

GordonS wrote: post #10
brillenfux wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Justified" is the word you're looking for. We want it to be justified, not honorable. Nobody gives two shits about honor as soon as it is about "them" (whoever fits that definition currently).

I'm not sure this kind of disgusting behaviour can ever be justified.

It is coneviable that circumstances could exist where the use of torture would prevent some greater evil. But the only proper place to make such an argument is in court as a defense against prosecution. The act would still be illegal and should still be illegal. The disgusting thing is trying to pre-approve illegal acts ahead of time and using that as a defence.

Re: The Al-Qaeda Leader Who Wasn’t: The Shameful Ordeal of Abu Zubaydah

#14

Post by cryoshon »

GordonS wrote: post #9
saiya-jin wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say disgust rather than fear, just another entitled bunch of a holes who think they can do whatever they want all around the globe and they actually have means to do so. but then comes fleeting moment of satisfaction when some of them are shot, kidnapped etc... yeah, that's how despised they are

> just another entitled bunch of aholes who think they can do whatever they want all around the globe and they actually have means to do so I think that understates things a bit - I'm not aware of any other group in history that has freely wrought global havoc for so long, torturing, killing, trafficking in drugs, destroying lives, destroying whole nations ... Honestly, they are terrifying .

Yeah. I wonder if there's a way to tally up their death toll... it's possible it'd be in the millions.

Re: The Al-Qaeda Leader Who Wasn’t: The Shameful Ordeal of Abu Zubaydah

#15

Post by tobltobs »

saiya-jin wrote: post #7
GordonS wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, they've come to be known for lack of oversight, being involved in corruption, being involved in drug production and trafficking, overthrowing democraically elected governments, installing despots, grabbing people from their home countries and torturing them in absolutely vile ways, and more. The 3 letters 'CIA' now strike fear into the hearts of innocent people across the globe.

I would say disgust rather than fear, just another entitled bunch of a holes who think they can do whatever they want all around the globe and they actually have means to do so. but then comes fleeting moment of satisfaction when some of them are shot, kidnapped etc... yeah, that's how despised they are

I don't think disgust is the right word what you will feel if they put your name on some kill list.

Re: The Al-Qaeda Leader Who Wasn’t: The Shameful Ordeal of Abu Zubaydah

#16

Post by Natanael_L »

7952 wrote: post #13
GordonS wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure this kind of disgusting behaviour can ever be justified.

It is coneviable that circumstances could exist where the use of torture would prevent some greater evil. But the only proper place to make such an argument is in court as a defense against prosecution. The act would still be illegal and should still be illegal. The disgusting thing is trying to pre-approve illegal acts ahead of time and using that as a defence.

Problem is that it doesn't even give all that much actionable information in the first place.

Re: The Al-Qaeda Leader Who Wasn’t: The Shameful Ordeal of Abu Zubaydah

#17

Post by [deleted] »

GordonS wrote: post #9
saiya-jin wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say disgust rather than fear, just another entitled bunch of a holes who think they can do whatever they want all around the globe and they actually have means to do so. but then comes fleeting moment of satisfaction when some of them are shot, kidnapped etc... yeah, that's how despised they are

> just another entitled bunch of aholes who think they can do whatever they want all around the globe and they actually have means to do so I think that understates things a bit - I'm not aware of any other group in history that has freely wrought global havoc for so long, torturing, killing, trafficking in drugs, destroying lives, destroying whole nations ... Honestly, they are terrifying .

[deleted]

Re: The Al-Qaeda Leader Who Wasn’t: The Shameful Ordeal of Abu Zubaydah

#18

Post by reacweb »

Maxious wrote: post #11
GordonS wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure this kind of disgusting behaviour can ever be justified.

"Nearly two-thirds of Americans believe torture can be justified to extract information from suspected terrorists, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll ... Only 15 percent said torture should never be used ... The Reuters/Ipsos poll included 1,976 people. It has a credibility interval, a measure of accuracy, of 2.5 percentage points for the entire group" http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-torture-exclu...

We can see physical or psychological torture used effectively in many TV series. I have read that in real life, torture was very ineffective to make people tell something they want to hide. Generally people die without speaking or do not know any valuable secret.

Remember at school. When one child get punished, all the other childs of the class become quiet. The main desired effect of torture is manipulation of population. They do not care if the tortured guy speaks or dies, they want to inspire fear.

I think it is the only way to understand how something so barbare and so ineffective (in its direct purpose) is still used. TV series should stop disinformation (pretending torture works and presenting torture as acceptable).

Torture is unacceptable.

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