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Gentoo Tesla – T2 Edition

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Re: Gentoo Tesla – T2 Edition

#81

Post by striking »

mtgx wrote: post #59
orik wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I recall correctly the part of the system this is running on is independant from anything important and only does media controls. It also speaks to the rest of the car over a network interface. But still not quite for the faint of heart.

How exactly is it separated? I imagine the ideal solution would be using two airgapped computers, one for the main car system, one for the media stuff, and then keep the servers from which they receive updates, and the authorization for those servers completely separated as well, with the updates done by different people, too. But I imagine the vast majority of car makers don't do anything close to that, and probably…

It's a chroot'd environment. Yeah, you could theoretically crash the underlying kernel, but doing so would probably be pretty difficult. You'd have to give that environment access to things that can crash the kernel on purpose.

Re: Gentoo Tesla – T2 Edition

#82

Post by wildefyr »

milesf wrote: post #45

Interesting that some believe rooting a car is going "too far", yet building our entire society and financial systems with duct-tape coding and fail-early-fail-often methodologies is okay.

I think when your life is on the line people tend to take it more seriously. Think of techniques like six sigma that rose during the manufacturing of parts for the Apollo program because losing a man was considered (and rightfully so) unacceptable.

Re: Gentoo Tesla – T2 Edition

#83

Post by makomk »

brianwawok wrote: post #20
eliaspro wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just a chroot. Thats far less dangerous than completely reflashing it etc

So what happens when your app hits an infinite loop and locks the CPU? Or trashes some memory it shouldn't? Does autopilot still work? Do the airbags still deploy? Does the brake still work?

I'd hope so, since apparently the computer that's being hacked here occasionally crashes and restarts in normal operation with the official unmodified Tesla firmware.

Re: Gentoo Tesla – T2 Edition

#84

Post by Hemera- »

brianwawok wrote: post #20
eliaspro wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just a chroot. Thats far less dangerous than completely reflashing it etc

So what happens when your app hits an infinite loop and locks the CPU? Or trashes some memory it shouldn't? Does autopilot still work? Do the airbags still deploy? Does the brake still work?

I have never driven while running any of my stuff. Also, this is the CID, it doesn't control those things. You can even reboot the CID while you're driving.

Re: Gentoo Tesla – T2 Edition

#85

Post by andreis_ »

vidarh wrote: post #56
dochtman wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if this is supposed to be funny (I can't tell, so I think you may have failed if so), I'd like to correct you and say that what makes Gentoo tick doesn't hinge on GNU at all. We can run on different kernels, different libcs, and coreutils are just a package you install. Might be toybox for all Gentoo cares! As far as I'm concerned, Gentoo is the most underappreciated distro. I'm a Gentoo dev, but that's not why…

He's just adapted this copypasta, replacing "Linux" with "Gentoo": http://www.lurkmore.com/view/GNU/Linux_interjection

Amazing how many people took the bait (myself included). Thanks for the link!

Re: Gentoo Tesla – T2 Edition

#86

Post by Hemera- »

mtgx wrote: post #59
orik wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I recall correctly the part of the system this is running on is independant from anything important and only does media controls. It also speaks to the rest of the car over a network interface. But still not quite for the faint of heart.

How exactly is it separated? I imagine the ideal solution would be using two airgapped computers, one for the main car system, one for the media stuff, and then keep the servers from which they receive updates, and the authorization for those servers completely separated as well, with the updates done by different people, too. But I imagine the vast majority of car makers don't do anything close to that, and probably…

It's incredibly complicated, but pretty secure. The CAN bus is isolated from the network. I have root access on the CID and the IC (both separate tegra systems). You can even reboot the CID while you're driving and you only lose media and air conditioning and such. Accessing the CAN bus requires going through a pretty secure gateway system, so you can only basically make requests. Even then, I haven't even really looked into that area much.

Re: Gentoo Tesla – T2 Edition

#87

Post by sweden »

pritambaral wrote: post #69
sweden wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is an interesting question. A while a go, 2 guys made a presentation at DEFCON with a presentation about their findings on hacking a Tesla Model S. They were able to successfully get root access to the car's system (not chroot, real full root access) and with that they were able to fully access to the car's API within Tesla OS. They even showed a video about one of the guys driving the car at low speed and the oth…

While it is very reassuring that the car is able, the speedpoint chosen by Tesla – 50kmph — is not. I'd rather a car not be remote-controllable at anything more than a slow crawl, and 50kmph is quite capable of making such a heavy car dangerous.

I'm not sure what are the exact conditions for the Tesla OS to be overridden by other internal systems, 50 km/h was just a placeholder value for "lower speeds".

Re: Gentoo Tesla – T2 Edition

#88

Post by dimino »

eric_h wrote: post #22
arcticfox wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude can refer to any sex, in the US at least.

Generally only in the second person, though. Third person (this dude was pissing me off, or "it's a dude!") usually means male.

No, "Dude, you rule" is definitely gender-neutral by now.

Re: Gentoo Tesla – T2 Edition

#89

Post by 542458 »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #43
542458 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what happens when you get into a bad crash, somebody decides to sue, and it comes out that your car was running modified software. Would you be exposing yourself to any liability?

This always comes up in these threads, but I don't understand how it would be any different from millions of cars running around with modified engines, suspensions, brakes, non-OEM tires and wheels. If it can be shown that your modification contributed to the accident, then liability will be apportioned accordingly. Usually it can't.

But software is much more complicated. If I put aftermarket suspension in, it's pretty unlikely that it will significantly screw up my brakes. But with software, it's a lot harder to say what affects what, especially considering how many cars have a single computer that handles both critical and non-critical tasks. A media player mod could very well screw up the brakes by hogging system resources or crashing the computer. If my insurance refuses to pay out after a crash on account of that, do I have to prove my mods to be safe?

NB: I have almost no idea how liability and insurance works in the US.

Re: Gentoo Tesla – T2 Edition

#90

Post by lazaroclapp »

wille92 wrote: post #16

I'm all for rooting my phones, media devices, gaming consoles...but I think I'd stop short of rooting my car. I think back to the Toyota electronic throttle control system bugs--we can hardly trust manufacturers to develop robust automotive software on their own, long before rooting and customization are thrown into the mix. The media system modded in this post _should_ be completely separate from the "brains" of the…

You know some people mod the engine on their car, right? Or swap the transmission? Changing the software is hardly the most significant modification owners do to their cars, at least for non-self-driving cars ;)
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