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Achievement Porn

petermichaud.com

81–90 of 122 posts

Re: Achievement Porn

#81
post #46

Trying to define what should be meaningful for other people is pretty arrogant and an insular perspective on life. My personal take on reality is that the whole shebang is a "meaningless treadmill", but I'm willing to accept that it might not be true for the next guy.

I don't get the upvotes for this comment. Most of the philosophers we revere did exactly this -- define and put forth universal ideas for what is meaningful in life. No one is forcing these ideas on you, and it's easy to take shots at the "man in the arena" who steps forward to tackle a subject. I found it pretty interesting, as I had never thought much about the impact of this new class of "achievement" modern socie…

A lot of the other philosophers we revere did exactly the opposite - proclaim that nothing is meaningful in life, or that we're all just mistaken and can't express our ideas clearly. Eg. Nietzsche, Wittgenstein.

Re: Achievement Porn

#82

Anyone else expect the article to be about an idea for a new porn site where you unlock achievements? I clicked the link wondering if you made progress by watching stuff, or had to submit videos of doing stuff (which, from the perspective of the site owners, could be a way to encourage users to submit free content).

Yep, I clicked on it thinking guy is going to propose new business model for porn.

Re: Achievement Porn

#83
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the difference between "leveling up" and rising in a meritocracy? Ideally in any organization those talented enough to run it will rise to the top and "level up". If education and training help you achieve that, what's the problem?

Merit is continuous and not discrete. When you take a continuous function and try to make it look discrete, what you'll notice is that there is 'some extra' between the actual merit curve and the stepwise function that touches it. These so-called meritocracies are just a way to skim that extra off the top. Look at it this way, if you went in to take music lessons and your music teacher told you that in order to get t…

Thought experiment: if you ignore all the levels in these institutions, do they then become worthwhile?

My high school did not have grades. It worked on a portfolio system, which is basically a recognition that achievement is continuous. And then I basically ignored my grades in college (and it showed ;-)). There's one semester (abroad) that I still don't know my grades for, because I didn't check for a year, it was in a separate computer system, and by then I'd forgotten my password for it. I don't particularly care about promotions at my current employer, because I figure I will eventually leave and then all that career advancement means nought.

However, I think there is still value in college, and there is value in the work I do for my employer.

I'm skeptical of claims like "Every system that allows you to level up is out to fuck you, take your money, or both" because it doesn't admit that a.) not everyone's value system is the same as yours or mine and b.) accomplishments done for the reward are still accomplishments. Say someone writes this neat new feature that improves the lives of hundreds of millions of people. They did it because they want a promotion. Their motive does not invalidate the fact that they've improved the lives of hundreds of millions of people.

Re: Achievement Porn

#84
post #79
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about : Any achievement the game rewards you for is a fake achievement. Whenever I go up a level in WoW, or gain a kill in Quake, or beat a boss and pick up his loot I have a fake achievement. Sure, there are some real achievements in there, but they are not provided by the game world - they are almost a side effect. Most likely they are not the reason that people are playing these games, but they are a useful ex…

IMO, an achievement is "real" when your actions are what separates a reasonable chance of failure and success. Thus the classic MMO grind fest, or a slot machine could be called fake achievements, but most PVP kills are actually fairly complex achievements.

Your skills are real, your achievement is meaningless.

I am an awesome Natural Selection (the FPS RTS) commander. I have lead epic campaigns back and forth across the game map against huge odds. When I played, my team often told me that I was doing a great job.

Then, I won. The game went "well done" and all that hard work turned into nothing.

Sure, I had skill, but I had achieved nothing but entertainment and wasted weekends. At the time I was very happy with that. I'm not satisfied with that any more.

Re: Achievement Porn

#85
Behavioral economics taken to a horrifying extreme. I thought that's what he was warning of - until I got to the conclusion and realized he was condoning it. Yuck. It's like a bad episode of Sliders.

Re: Achievement Porn

#87
post #67

I had read the first article already, and this one provided an interesting commentary. What struck me most, however, was the striking parallel it makes to a distant, hazily defined, mmo game that a friend and I talk about creating in our twilight years. This game would simply be a massive simulation of a fantasy setting, replete with deep and meaningful (in an in-game sense) game-object detail, but which would offer…

So, real life, but with unicorns and a lower poly-count?

Re: Achievement Porn

#88
> Any achievement in a video game is a “fake achievement.”

(Disclaimer: I'm assuming he's talking about any achievement in a game, whether it was placed there by the creators or naturally occurring).

Life is a game. What's the difference between rules in a game of monopoly and laws governing corporate actions? Controlling a predator drone in real life vs in Call of Duty? A game is usually something with predefined rules of which you'll need to manipulate and work around to do something. A video game is a new type of game, which also provides audio visual stimulation, as well as mental (however little).

It's true that fake achievements that are setup so that anyone who plays the game can achieve them, like leveling up, is pointless. But when a game is skill based and competitive, you can position yourself against others. And as far as I know, every game opens up the potential to compare your performance with other peoples' in a task with predefined rules. What's life if it isn't full of rules? There is really no line between virtual and reality. Everything you do is in reality, even your imagination, because it will carry over where ever you are in this world.

> The easy part to culling the bullshit is to ask yourself: Is this activity making a positive, tangible difference in my life or anyone else’s life? Is it a real, true prerequisite for a tangibly effective activity? Alternatively, am I totally okay with doing this just because I like doing it, laboring under no illusion that it benefits me or anyone else?

What does the Olympics do besides motivate and inspire people (and bring in money to the host city)? Can't (video) games theoretically do the same things? Whether or not an activity makes a positive difference in your life, or anyone's else's life is relative to everyone's priorities. There is no absolute universal law which defines what "benefit" is. Whether or not it benefits people depends on whether or not it can get what people want. And what people want these days vary.

I think the author is confusing what he wants and what he thinks is beneficial to be what other people want and think are beneficial. It's a matter of preference if I want to walk on a treadmill or go for an actual walk. Whichever one is better is highly subjective. Everything you do is in this world, has consequences and benefits in this world. And as I have argued, games, video or otherwise, are simply isolated well defined subsets of our universe which are also analogous to the universe (both are defined by rules).

Re: Achievement Porn

#89

"Any achievement in a video game is a fake achievement" This is a great soundbite to build an essay around but ignores two decades of learning, cognitive, and psychological research. There are too many examples to try to pack into a comments, but among the most obvious: - 3D games are have been demonstrated to have positive effects on spatial perception and to allow rehearsal-based training for real-world activities…

I'm sure Guitar Hero players gain better rhythm over time too. However, will their musical skills be as good as someone who actually take the effort to learn guitar? Probably not.

I agree with you that the author ignored some important facts. However, the thesis still holds that many achievements (i.e. education) have been dumb down to make people feel content about being less skilled.

The problem is that we are getting better at hacking our own brains to give us more reward than we deserve.

Re: Achievement Porn

#90

Very interesting. These two articles explain a few things for me: 1. Why I can't ever seem to get into video games (or games in general). 2. Why the hobbies I do enjoy use skills that are difficult to acquire and take a lot of effort to master. 3. Why we have such a hard time motivating our son to practice viola and stick to martial arts. Most of the reward he's heard over the years has come in the form of, "Wow, you…

Games are typically spatial based (shooters mostly) or strategic based and for whatever reason (genetic or cultural) boys are more interested in these topics than girls.

Girls have been shown to be more interested in reality based games (playing house etc.) which is why games like The Sims are such a hit. Constrastly boys look for an escape/imaginative games which sums up most games and is why your son plays more games than your daughter.

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