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Aphantasia: How It Feels to Be Blind in Your Mind

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Re: Aphantasia: How It Feels to Be Blind in Your Mind

#191

I'm the author of this post, happy to answer any questions. About me: I was formerly a director of product at FB and a founder of Firefox. My YC startup became FB's first acquisition. I'm focusing more on creative writing these days (wrote the Silicon Valley spec script and the Theranos parody that have come up on HN a few times.) Aphantasia was a pretty weird discovery for me given this new focus.

I discovered that aphantasia was a thing, and that it seemed to match me, a couple of months ago.

May I ask if you feel embarrassment when you think about an embarrassing event in your past?

The adjustment is quite an odd feeling. I use mostly the same language to describe things as other people. I will use terms like 'mental image' or 'yeah i can see you wearing that', but to me it was far more metaphorical. I had the same realization about counting sheep. Now I feel a bit uncomfortable when I use some terms. I'm used to using them but that was when I thought everybody else was using them in the same way as myself.

I had wondered if the Text popups in the TV series Sherlock came from someone with without aphantasia trying to understand a description given by someone with aphantasia. I could describe what I 'see' when I think about something as a cloud of facts relating to the subject, If someone who inherently thought of such things visually tried to interpret my viewpoint I could quite easily understand how they end up with the effect used in Sherlock. It's not what I see of course. I don't see words floating in space. I see nothing. To some the idea of not imagining things visually must seem just as impossible.

I think it's different to imagination though, I can't visualize but I can imagine.

I tried this experiment:

Imagine two identical closed cardboard boxes. In one of them there is a duck.

I can't see the boxes but I can imagine them, and the box with a duck in it is distinctly different to the one without. My friends say they can visualize the boxes and they do indeed look identical, but strangely they still seem to know which one the duck is inside.

Re: Aphantasia: How It Feels to Be Blind in Your Mind

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can imagine an image in my head (sort of) but I can't not think in words. It's hard for me to even understand what people mean when they say they are thinking but they don't have an internal monologue going on in their head. Brains are weird.

Do you know more then one language? I grew up bilingual from a young age, and I suspect that has something to do with the disconnect between ideas and words. The simplest proof I have for the fact that I don't think in words is that I quite often forget a word, and can't complete a sentence. I know exactly what I want to express and have thought it through in my mind, but I can't tell it to someone else because I don…

Exactly. I also grew up to be bilingual from a young age, and I didn't learn my second language in a way an adult would, by connecting foreign words with the words you already know from your first language, but in a way a toddler would, just by listening to it and maybe some reading.

After I began to think in English (my second language), I found that I wasn't speaking my first language anymore, I was just translating to it from my second one. And because the two weren't connected in my brain, I started frequently forgeting words and having trouble with phrasing.

Re: Aphantasia: How It Feels to Be Blind in Your Mind

#193
post #169

I'm so much the other way that it's scary, because it's a vulnerability, one I didn't know about until it happened. Musical/artistic family, multi-talented all around me. I'd keep my suburban-bicycled paper-route from getting boring by playing back in my head music I'd heard and liked. Stumbled into hardware, then software, as something I could do and do well and get paid to do it. Whatever it was I was doing -- song…

Anybody else gone through this?

Yes, although I don't think I was able to "see" things in my head before or after. I got West Nile Virus about 10 years ago, and was physically out-of-commission for most of a year. The particularly disturbing part was that even after I recovered physically, it took several more years before I recovered my mental ability well enough to reason about anything complex -- like math, or code. I just couldn't follow equations that once made sense.

Now after a decade, I think I'm back to about 80-90% of peak. I don't know if the small decline is residual from the West Nile, or to be expected with normal aging from 35 to 45. The experience drove home how little we understand the brain, or viruses. Consider how primitive our understanding of medicine was 100 years ago. I think it's likely that 100 years forward they'll look back at now with similar disdain: "They didn't understand anything --- they just let viruses run their course and do their damage!"

Re: Aphantasia: How It Feels to Be Blind in Your Mind

#194

There are a lot of basic assumptions about thought that don't apply to everybody. My wife, for example, can't process "left" and "right" without great effort. She's intelligent and is a gifted artist in a variety of mediums, and is not dyslexic in the least. But if you tell her to "turn right" in a car it's very confusing for her to translate that into which direction she should take. Even more confusingly, she's a v…

Is your wife left-handed?

I have trouble with left and right and I'll often point left and say "turn right." I should also mention that I'm left handed, and our society (in fact, most if not all societies) are geared for right handed people.

Re: Aphantasia: How It Feels to Be Blind in Your Mind

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can imagine an image in my head (sort of) but I can't not think in words. It's hard for me to even understand what people mean when they say they are thinking but they don't have an internal monologue going on in their head. Brains are weird.

Do you know more then one language? I grew up bilingual from a young age, and I suspect that has something to do with the disconnect between ideas and words. The simplest proof I have for the fact that I don't think in words is that I quite often forget a word, and can't complete a sentence. I know exactly what I want to express and have thought it through in my mind, but I can't tell it to someone else because I don…

I'm a native English-speaker, and I don't speak anything else fluently, but I speak enough of a few languages to have basic conversations in them (that is, enough to go beyond just using phrases that I learned from a book).

Every now and then, I'll forget a word in English but remember it in another language. My internal monologue tends to be English-ish (especially right now, when I'm composing a post), but if the sounds for a word are missing, the concept will fill its place...or sometimes the closest equivalent of whichever language I've been thinking about lately. I can also think almost completely in wordless concept-strings, but that sometimes feels forced.

Maybe I should mention that I learned a few words in French, German, and Spanish before I was 8, but the first time that I really studied a language in the usual sense was when I was about 12.

Re: Aphantasia: How It Feels to Be Blind in Your Mind

#196

I would be curious to see how the HN community scores on this aphantasia survey embedded in the BBC article: http://www.bbc.com/news/health-34039054 . Perhaps there's a connection between programmers and this condition. Will you take it and report your score? The survey is oversimplified, obviously, but it was devised by the Exeter neurologists who are studying this. I got the lowest score (8/40) since none of the qu…

9/40 All my "images" are descriptions, but for some of the questions I think those descriptions are vivid enough to count as images. (For example, gradient was a helpful term for the sun and the sky.) I'm an INTJ engineer, in case that's a helpful thing to note. Audio and "feelings" are even harder for me to imagine, because I have less descriptive language It's actually hard for me to imagine what people mean by pic…

24 / 40, although I might've rated a few too optimistically.

> It's actually hard for me to imagine what people mean by pictures in the mind. Surely nobody imagines things the way they see things?

We do!

When I'm focused on imagining something, it's similar to if there were a 5% opacity layer - of what I've imagined - overlaying my normal vision. Only the opacity is really 0%, but I'm still able to perceive it... somehow. I can look at a table, and imagine a mug on it, and I'll "see" the invisible 0% opacity mug there. A 1% opacity wireframe/outline of the mug would be very very similar to what I "see".

I can then close my eyes and "picture" the room still. I can get up and try to navigate the room - it's not working off a collection of factoids about where objects roughly are compared to each other or where I was, it's much more like vision. There are hazards - my actual position and my imagined position won't stay perfectly in sync and will drift apart over time. And if someone moved around the furniture, that won't be reflected in my imagined world, leading me to try and sit on nonexistant chairs or trip over tables that are invisible... within my invisible, imagined, room.

I don't have to base what I'm picturing off of reality, although my imagination struggles to fill out entire scenes on it's own consciously if it doesn't have a template to work off of. Details get left out or abstracted.

I can keep my eyes open and do this as well. I notice that I automatically and subconsciously take steps to reduce the impact of my real senses when I do this - this typically means I look up towards some boring part of the ceiling or sky, defocus my vision, and reduce the amount of attention I'm paying to my senses. I may or may not close my eyes when trying to "picture" something. This all reduces the impact of what's "behind" the invisible "semitransparent" layer of my imagined pictures.

I can do similar with other senses. I can imagine what pizza tastes like - if you took away the flavor of pizza until you're no longer sure or not if you're actually tasting anything, the physical experience is similar to that. Same with smells - just take the real experience, and then dilute it to the point where you're no longer sure if you're actually smelling the thing or not. Interestingly, imagined touch and feel might be a bit more vivid for me - imagining myself on a warm and sunny beach, I do actually feel (still very slightly) warmer.

Re: Aphantasia: How It Feels to Be Blind in Your Mind

#197
post #3

> If I tell you to imagine a beach, you can picture the golden sand and turquoise waves. Yes, with great detail. > If I ask for a red triangle, your mind gets to drawing. Yup (and it's spinning for some reason!) > And mom’s face? Of course. Not at all! I've always been intrigued about this. I have a very rich "mind's eye", but always struggle with drawing faces in my mind. My experience with imagining faces: I get th…

Same deal, although my visualization ability is weaker than most in general I think, faces are definitely the hardest.

For me the feeling is very similar to having a word just on the "tip of your tongue", where you know the word you want, you can feel it, its meaning, etc. You know you'd recognize it instantly if you heard (saw) it, but you can't quite bring it up.

Sometimes I can't even tell if I actually am visualizing a face or not, because it's like for a split second I feel like I can almost see it, but then when I focus on it, it's gone. And other times I know I have seen people's faces in my mind, but it's generally spontaneous, not when I actively try to pull one up. Kind of like seeing something in your peripheral vision, but not being able to focus on it.

Re: Aphantasia: How It Feels to Be Blind in Your Mind

#198

I'm the author of this post, happy to answer any questions. About me: I was formerly a director of product at FB and a founder of Firefox. My YC startup became FB's first acquisition. I'm focusing more on creative writing these days (wrote the Silicon Valley spec script and the Theranos parody that have come up on HN a few times.) Aphantasia was a pretty weird discovery for me given this new focus.

What about more abstract tasks that could be solved by visualization, such as "What is the shape of the graph of y = x^2" or "Given any shape made out of six squares, is it possible to fold it into a cube?" Would you be able to solve these kinds of questions mentally, and if so, how?

As an example, for the cube question, I would generally solve it by visualizing the shape starting out flat and then getting folded 90 degrees inward at each crease until it either forms a complete cube, in which case the answer is yes, or two of the squares are forces to overlap each other, in which case the answer is no. To be clear, I'm not imagining any person's hands actually performing the act of folding, I'm just visualizing the abstract shape floating an otherwise featureless void, folding of its own accord. In fact, here's a video that more or less shows what I would visualize: https://vimeo.com/64926672

Re: Aphantasia: How It Feels to Be Blind in Your Mind

#199

I'm the author of this post, happy to answer any questions. About me: I was formerly a director of product at FB and a founder of Firefox. My YC startup became FB's first acquisition. I'm focusing more on creative writing these days (wrote the Silicon Valley spec script and the Theranos parody that have come up on HN a few times.) Aphantasia was a pretty weird discovery for me given this new focus.

How do you know that you have aphantasia? I just took the test on the BBC and got the lowest score, but I'm still not sure if I have aphantasia or not. I can "picture" scenes in my mind. I certainly don't have a problem with imagination or thinking up different potential realities. But the picture I have is basically a literary description. If you asked me to imagine a beach I would rapidly compose a narrative compos…

I think my visualization ability is poor compared to most people, but I can definitely tell you that it starts with an image, which you can then describe in text, not the other way around. For instance, when I imagine a beach, I pull up a (rough, fuzzy, for me) picture in my mind. Then I actually look at the picture and notice that, for instance, it's in kind of a U-shape around a small inlet. In fact, it actually took me a minute to come up with the words to describe that just now.

That said, I think an easier way to differentiate is to imagine a beach you've actually been to. When I tried to do that, the first thing to come to mind was a lake near my house. And I saw more of the lake than the beach actually - the trees behind it, the parking lot off to one side, etc. Thinking logically about that one, my mental picture is actually flawed, because that parking lot is farther away than it is in the mental picture that came up!

It seems like for a lot of people, the pictures actually have a "mind of their own" to some extent. Another comment mentioned imagining a triangle, and it turned out it was spinning. I can totally see that happening. You don't think, "I'm going to imagine a spinning triangle" or something - you just attempt to pull up a picture of a triangle, and your brain gives you a representation. Details you don't decide on will be filled in.

It really is fascinating. And from reading other comments on this post and others like it, it sounds like some people have a far stronger ability to visualize than I do. I'm mildly jealous, but at the same time, the OP for instance has obviously done just fine without - and is also a highly entertaining writer! (Who knows, perhaps even for reasons related to the aphantasia.)

Re: Aphantasia: How It Feels to Be Blind in Your Mind

#200

There are a lot of basic assumptions about thought that don't apply to everybody. My wife, for example, can't process "left" and "right" without great effort. She's intelligent and is a gifted artist in a variety of mediums, and is not dyslexic in the least. But if you tell her to "turn right" in a car it's very confusing for her to translate that into which direction she should take. Even more confusingly, she's a v…

I don't have any problem differentiating left from right, but I do have very clear memories of learning the concepts as a child, and coincidentally, I learned them through visualization. Also, they were definitely two distinct concepts - I internalized "left" some time before "right". I'm not sure how long, since I was like 4-5 years old at the time, but I'm going to guess on the order of a month.

Anyway, I learned left because one time we were walking down a specific street by our house - coincidentally on the way to a beach - and I guess I was asked to walk on the left side of the road or something. For some reason, I knew which side was the left at that time. So from then on, any time I had to know which was was left, I would just pull up a mental picture of that street, and then know that side was left.

What's interesting is, I definitely didn't use the same picture for right. I don't remember why, but I remember that some time later, my "right" reference became a mental image of the swimming pool where I was taking swimming lessons. I was at the edge of the pool looking out, and somehow (I've forgotten how - perhaps deducing from left) I worked out which way was right. So from then on I would visualize that view out of the pool to know which way was right.

IIRC I did it consciously for a period of time, then it would happen automatically, and at some point between then and adulthood the crutch faded away and I automatically knew left and right like most people. (I have no memory of how long that took, but it probably was still as a young child.)

Anyway, aside from whatever general interest that story might have, I wonder whether a similar technique would work for your wife? Pick a specific mental picture to associate with "left", then spend some time intentionally pulling it up whenever leftness needs to be ascertained. Then once it's cemented, do a different one for right.

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